Joyce Meyer - What To Do When People Are Hard To Love

Ginger Stache: Hi, everyone. We have a really important topic for you, today. And I don't know anyone who would say, "I don't need this topic". We are talking, today, about how to love people that are hard to love.

Jai Williams: My Lord.

Ginger Stache: Joyce has written a book on it, and I'll tell ya, we need it. And really, the world, right now, needs this more than ever.

Joyce Meyer: Right. And there... You know, we're all hard to love at times. So, we can't act like that we never are. But there are some people that are just really extra, extra hard to love. And one of the first things to remember is they probably are like that because they're hurting somewhere in their life. I don't think anybody gets out of bed and just purposely tries to be obnoxious all day long. You know, that... A lot of people that are behaving badly don't even realize that they are. Or they just are hurting so bad they don't have any self-control. I had a lot of years in my life where I wasn't very nice, but I didn't really even realize because I'd been raised around people that weren't very nice. And so, I was just acting out of what I saw.

Ginger Stache: And been through a lot, that shaped your personality at that time.

Joyce Meyer: Right, yeah.

Ginger Stache: That... There are so many people that we come across every day that we don't know what's happening behind the scenes and how their worlds are just turned upside down.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah, and you... Something has to be done about all the hatred and the anger that's in the world, today. And I don't know any way to try to get people to change other than to convince them. It's a one-by-one decision. Everybody has to make their decision. And if enough Christians... Because there really are a lot of us. If enough Christians would just make the decision. Because it's not just unbelievers that are mad, angry, and unforgiving.

Ginger Stache: Oh, certainly not. The Christians, we can be the worst, sometimes.

Erin Cluley: It's true.

Joyce Meyer: And very judgmental and critical. And, you know, we think that "Well, I believe is right and nobody else," you know, "Knows anything". And that attitude, the Bible says in Ephesians 4:30 that it grieves the Holy Spirit. And that's... When you really think about that. That's bad. And since he lives in us, if he's grieved, I think we feel that grief, too. So, I think a lot of people are unhappy. And they don't even realize it's because of their own attitude. And the really important thing that I hope to try to get across to people through this book and the different teachings is that love is not a feeling. You know, there is a type of love that produces Romantic feelings, but it's not the agape love that Jesus has for us, that God has for us. He loves us in a way that has nothing to do with our behavior. He loves us, literally, into wholeness. And people get married on feelings, and then when the feelings are gone, they get divorced. Or when something doesn't turn out the way they thought it would, they get divorced, or somebody hurts 'em, they get divorced. And we have to learn that love is... It's a decision that you make about how you're going to treat someone.

Ginger Stache: All people.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah, all people.

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: All people. That's the simplest way I know how to say it.

Ginger Stache: So, we're gonna get real practical and give some help for all of us because we need it. We need to know how to do this better. But first, we're gonna start with a little clip from Joyce teaching. She's gonna tell us about how... This is such great news, even the disciples had a hard time getting along, sometimes. So, let's listen to this.

Joyce Meyer: "Then Peter came to Jesus..." this is all just one verse after another. This is all the same subject. "Then Peter came to Jesus and said, "'how many times can my brother sin against me and I forgive him and let it go? [as many as] seven'"? I think that's interesting. You know, Peter had probably heard the rabbis teach, which they did teach in those days, that, "We must forgive three times but the fourth time we don't need to forgive". I don't know where they came up with that but that was what they taught so Peter figured that Jesus' standard would be a little higher but he surely didn't think it would be anymore than seven. Why would Peter even ask a question like that?

Well, I'm totally convinced that those 12 disciples did not all like each other and did not all appreciate each other. There's enough information in the Bible for us to know that there was competition between 'em. They were jealous of each other, and I think it's pretty plain that Peter had a little bit of a hard time with John's personality. I mean, how would you like to be Peter bold, aggressive, doesn't use a lot of wisdom with his mouth, quick tempered? How would you like to hang out with somebody who calls himself, "The disciple whom Jesus loves"? "I am..." and John wrote the book of John and he said that repeated times. "I am the disciple that Jesus loves".

And his whole personality was different. He was just real relational, and hanging around, loving Jesus. And Peter, he's a man of action. He wants to go do somethin'. And so, they had issues, just like we have issues with people. It is, you know, this myth of finding anybody that's perfect is just useless because everybody may be a rose, but they come with thorns. There's good, there's strengths, and there's weakness in everybody, and the more you are with any one person, the more they are likely to irritate you in some way. And these 12 guys lived together all the time.

See, you're all poking each other and like... Oh, listen, I love my husband tremendously, but he does things that irritate me. And the funny thing about Dave is when he knows he irritates me, then he does it more just to irritate me more because he thinks it's funny. And I won't get into Dave's stories or I'll never get my message finished but he's... I mean, I can give you a big long list of things that he does. I'm sure I do things too but he just never says anything about it like I do. I'm happy to tell him what he does that irritates me. And like I said, he thinks it's funny. He's like, "Oh good, now I'll do it some more". So Jesus said, "'not up to seven times, Peter, but seventy times seven'". And he really... He basically was just saying however many times it takes.

Now, you know, to forgive the same person for the same thing over and over gets even harder than forgiving somebody for something once. Now, forgiveness doesn't always mean that you need to stay in some kind of a deep relationship with somebody, but it has to do with your heart attitude toward them. And one of the things we have to realize is that hurting people hurt people, and we need to take a little more time to pray about and be more discerning, not about just what people do but maybe why they did it, why they behave the way they behave.

Ginger Stache: I love that you said... It's just such honesty, that the more you're around someone, they are eventually going to annoy you.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah.

Ginger Stache: You know, I mean, it's just the way it is. And the disciples were together all the time. So, we all have the potential for that rose, but those thorns are there, too. So, who would you call the prickly people in your life?

Jai Williams: Oh, Lord.

Erin Cluley: It feels dangerous to call that out.

Ginger Stache: No, I don't want names.

Erin Cluley: Do you wanna list?

Ginger Stache: No names, no, no, no.

Joyce Meyer: I started to say, you're tryin' to start something, here.

Jai Williams: I was ready.

Ginger Stache: No, no.

Erin Cluley: Let me pull it out. I got it here. I wrote it down.

Ginger Stache: No, but what type of people do you find it more difficult to love?

Joyce Meyer: Well, I was more like Peter. I am more like Peter. And so, I woulda had a hard time with John. I would have said, "You know, why don't you just quit laying around making goo-goo eyes and get up and do something".

Ginger Stache: "Quit making goo-goo eyes at Jesus and get up and do something".

Joyce Meyer: "Get up and do something. We got work to do, John". And I'm a type a choleric. And probably, the personality that I have the most trouble with is a full on 100% sanguine, who just wants to giggle about everything and just thinks life is one big party. And, you know, cuz I'm a worker and I want everybody to be serious, and let's get the job done, and I'm not Messing around. And one of the things that helped me more than anything to get along with people was finally getting it through my head that God did not create all of us alike. And really, to a certain extent, people can't help the way they are. Now, obviously, if it's something that's against the word, then we need to work with God to change it. But I mean, you... If you're a fun-loving person and that's your motivation in life, that's the way you're gonna be. And if you're a worker, like I am, that's the way you're gonna be. And so, you know, dave's real laid back and easygoing, and I've wished, numbers of times, I could be like that. But I'm not like that and I'm not ever going to be like that.

Ginger Stache: What about you guys?

Jai Williams: I'm pretty similar to that. Like, I like to... I'm pretty type a. I like to get things done. And even though, like, sometimes, I express myself in a more expressive way, people tend to think that I'm more extroverted than I really am. I'm pretty introverted, honestly, in real life, with... Amongst the people that I care about. And so, people tend to want me to be on all the time. So, that... Like, that the sanguines, of the people of the world.

Ginger Stache: People with unfair expectations.

Jai Williams: Yeah, because they see... They create this narrative of who they think I am, and expect me to live up to that versus who I truly am. That's one. And then another one is like when people like to sweep things under the rug, under the... I guess, the vice of saying, "Let it go," you know, instead of like, having the hard conversation and really getting to it. And then, you know, especially, if we love each other, like... To talk through it.

Joyce Meyer: You like to deal with stuff, and I do too.

Jai Williams: Like to deal with it. I don't... I'm not the type of person that like, just act like it didn't happen. If I know there's an elephant in the room, I'm gonna be like, "Hey, there's an elephant in the room. How are we gonna get it out"? Like, so that... Those are things that trigger me, like when it comes to being difficult to love people that, you know, like, it seems like, they sweep things under the rug and don't like to confront it, or people that try to make me be who they want me to be, you know, so.

Ginger Stache: That makes sense.

Erin Cluley: Yeah, that's good. People who complain a lot, I have a really hard time with. Those who see a glass half empty kind of view on life. Which is probably really annoying to them because I am so glass half full, and they're probably, equally annoyed by me. But that... It is draining to me, and it is just hard for me to feel that much empathy when there's not that much... There's good things happening too.

Joyce Meyer: So, you're real positive and people that are real negative obviously are hard for you to deal with.

Erin Cluley: Yes, and they probably feel the same about me. And, I also... Similar to what you're saying, Jai, I have a hard time with people that I feel controlled by. And so, this... I'm sure we'll talk more about this. I experienced this even with my husband in the past couple of years. His need to control, out of fear, which you talk about in your book. It was huge for me to learn that. He was operating out of fear. So, that made him hold tighter, which made me wanna back off and say, "No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not doing that with you". And so, that, I don't like. And that made me have a really difficult time loving him in that circumstance.

Joyce Meyer: Something else that I don't like, I just thought of, which is a little bit unique, is that if somebody, all of a sudden, they blow up at me, and they've got these 25 things that I've done over the past number of years.

Ginger Stache: Holding onto 'em.

Joyce Meyer: And I didn't know. It's like...

Jai Williams: "I can't fix something I didn't know".

Joyce Meyer: I'm like, "What are you talking about"? It's like, "Well, you did this, and you did that," and I'm like, "And that bothered you"? "Well, why didn't you say something then"? You know, and so all that time they'd been acting just like everything's fine between us when they've had that in their heart all along. And that's not an honest relationship.

Jai Williams: Letting it fester and letting it, you know. I don't like that either. And then... But then, people, like me, if little things... And I'm sure that this makes me difficult to love to some people. Like, if little things do kinda aggravate me, I don't say every little thing, but I am one of those people like, "Hey, that hurt my feelings". So, I don't... You know... And I'm sure that annoys people and makes people think I'm complaining or nit-picky. But I do like... Because I don't want it to fester, and then, every time you're... I'm around you, then you do something else, and it just piles and piles and piles. I am one of those people that are like, "It's not a huge deal, but when you said that, that did kinda rub me the wrong way, you know? And so, I could see how I can be difficult.

Joyce Meyer: And yet, the other side of that is, is the Bible says that love is not touchy. So, you have to find a balance in that otherwise...

Jai Williams: Everything will get on my nerves, huh?

Joyce Meyer: Yeah.

Jai Williams: "I didn't like that. I didn't like that either. I didn't like that".

Joyce Meyer: What about you, Ginger? Who do you have a hard time with besides me?

Ginger Stache: You said no specific names.

Joyce Meyer: Wait a minute. You didn't deny it.

Ginger Stache: You know I love you, ms. Joyce. No, I have so many similar ones. As I'm listening to each one of you, I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. That person's really hard too". So, you begin to realize, "Wow, I've got a lot of problems".

Erin Cluley: "I don't think I like anybody".

Ginger Stache: Because the people who are negative... Negativity just pours out of some people, and I do have a really difficult time with that. It's like, "Find something to be grateful for. I think of a solution instead of a problem". I mean, those are all things that are really important to me. And it is interesting how, like, what you were saying, Jai, the things that are important to us are often the things that annoy other people, you know? So, I don't like to not deal with things. I am a confronter. So, I don't like when someone's just going to complain about something and not find a way to fix it. I don't enjoy people who don't listen.

Erin Cluley: I don't enjoy that either.

Joyce Meyer: I don't enjoy people who talk too much.

Ginger Stache: Exactly.

Jai Williams: Any extreme.

Ginger Stache: So, there are so many different things. And I think digging into some of those practicalities of, "Okay, why"? Like, what you said about mike, "Why does this bother me so much and how can I handle it differently? It doesn't mean that I'm gonna love it, but I can love the person who's doing it, and maybe, find a way to work through it.

Joyce Meyer: But you're right. It is very good to examine your own heart about "Why does this bother me so much"? And a lot of times the only answer is, is because I'm not like that. And so, we have this pride problem that says, "The way I behave is the way everybody should behave". And that's what God had to really deal with me about. I thought, you know, "Well, I'm quick at everything. And you're slow, and I'm this, and you're that". And I had to realize that God loves all of us the same. And he created us very differently. And we can't have judgmental attitudes toward one another and be walking in love.

Erin Cluley: I had this thought, just recently, because I was thinking, "How can all of us, specifically Christians," who, we all have, like, the same goal and the same vision, we like... We love Jesus and we wanna be good to his people, that's the same, "How can we all think so differently and think we're all right"? Like, what is missing here?

Ginger Stache: That is so true.

Erin Cluley: Right? I just don't get it. And so, I kind of had this revelation. Like, everybody comes to the table with their own perspective, with their own personality, their own life experience, and everything that I feel is based off of how I was created and what I've experienced in my life. So, therefore, I think I'm right because of my experience. But mine is so different than yours. So, obviously, we're humans. We're gonna bring those things to the table.

Ginger Stache: That reminds me of a verse that I looked up for me because it's definitely one of my problems, is exactly what you're saying.

Erin Cluley: I didn't mean to shake my... "Yeah, it is one of your problems, it is".

Ginger Stache: You can. Cuz you know me well enough, you can just lay it out there. Is I do want people to see why I'm right. It's not just enough to be right. And I want them to understand.

Jai Williams: "And this is why I'm right".

Erin Cluley: There's proof.

Ginger Stache: So, there's a Bible verse. It's "Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions". That's in Proverbs.

Joyce Meyer: I read that recently.

Ginger Stache: And I thought, "Wow, that is so good". I can be that fool who is just delighting in making sure people know what I believe in's right, instead of delighting in understanding one another and learning so much from each other. And so, you know, I have to really physically take a step back and say, "What do I need to do in this situation? Is it time to shut my mouth"? You know, "Is it time to ask more questions of them and try to understand how it is that they're feeling a little bit more"? Or is this a time that I need to stand up and be vocal and say, "This is important". So, yeah, I'm not great at that, sometimes.

Joyce Meyer: That's why studying all the specific aspects of love in 1 Corinthians 13 is really so important because, you know, like I said to

Jai Williams: "Love is not touchy, love is not rude". It also says, "Love gives up its right to be right".

Ginger Stache: Ouch!

Erin Cluley: Ew, that's a tough one! I don't like it.

Ginger Stache: I don't think that one's in my Bible.

Jai Williams: Which version is that one? I don't want it.

Erin Cluley: Yours has that crossed out in sharpie.

Joyce Meyer: I don't know, maybe it's the Joyce version. But, obviously, you know, we all go through that. We wanna be... And how many arguments do people have just trying to prove that they're right? And my oldest son, David, was very much like that. And he just caused so many arguments because he was trying to prove he was right. And as he got a little bit older, I remember, he said to me, one day, he said, "You know, I think I've finally figured out that being right is highly overrated".

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: It's like, you think you've won...

Erin Cluley: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: But in God's eyes, you've lost. We have to understand. And God will help you with that. If you just... I just encourage people watching to try that the next time you have a bad reaction to somebody, or even just to say, "Now, why don't I like that person"?

Ginger Stache: I had that experience. Because it's very unlike me to naturally not like someone from the get-go. Usually I need a good reason. But there's this one person, and right from the very beginning...

Jai Williams: Is it me?

Ginger Stache: It's not you.

Joyce Meyer: We're all afraid it's us.

Ginger Stache: It's not you, it's Erin.

Jai Williams: Phew!

Erin Cluley: Joyce and I were both like, "Good to know".

Ginger Stache: No, no, no, not at all. I've loved you all from the very first start. But this one person, and it shocked me, like, "Why do I dislike this person so strongly"? And the things that they said, and the things that they did, I was just like, "I've got to get out of the presence of this person before," you know, "I explode". And I finally realized that they, very strongly, in the way that they looked and acted, reminded me of someone else that had hurt me, that I had a very difficult relationship with. And once I got that, it really did help. It didn't make it completely go away. Let's be honest. But it taught me how to love them in spite of the things that were hard to love.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah, I had the same situation with, if I came up across anybody that had a personality like my dad's, I instantly, just didn't like them. Or because I was so afraid of him, I would automatically start being afraid of that person. And so, we do. It's amazing, really, the damage that's done to a person if they're mistreated in their childhood. And it just takes time and working with God to get over it. And the only way you're gonna get over it is to know the truth, because that's what sets you free. And so, you have to be honest with yourself, about yourself, and really pray that God will show you, not just what's wrong with somebody else, but "Why am I responding that way"? If I'm supposed to love everybody, and be able to forgive them, and be patient, and pray for them, instead of being mad at them, then what's in me that's preventing me from doing that?

Erin Cluley: I appreciate you so much sharing that, for so many reasons. But for someone who didn't have trauma as a child, like, I was just so blessed to grow up in a really great home. And so, I don't have that perspective. To be around people who have trauma... And even my husband had some stuff happen as a child that I didn't know about until we went to counseling the past couple of years. And hearing him talk about his experience gave me such empathy that I didn't know I needed to have. And I'm so appreciative of you sharing because it helps people, like myself, know that there is so much more happening, here. Like, he really is a hurt person, and no wonder he is acting the way he is. Again, it doesn't excuse behavior. But I need to not think so much about myself that I'm forgetting about somebody else's pain. And I think that's so important that we talk about that.

Joyce Meyer: That's very true what you're saying, because I've had a number of people that tell me, "I'm married to joyce". You know, I'll share my issues and my problems, and the way I used to be, and how God help me, and they're still dealing with that in their spouse. So, hearing me talk about the fact that there is hope of change, you know.

Jai Williams: I have something funny cuz like, I've expressed that, you know, I'm dating again, and we've already gone through that. Well, this one guy I was dating, well, I tried to... I was just like... Not gonna happen... Not gonna happen. And I had a friend of mine that was just like, "You're not even giving your heart a chance to open up and love him because he doesn't look like the picture you've painted as to what your comeback goin' look like".

Joyce Meyer: Oh, so many people do that.

Jai Williams: You know, like I have this... Because I'm just like, "I have been through all of this stuff with that last man," you know, like, you know. Like this next one, "He's gonna to do this. He's going to have a yacht". No, not that far. But it wouldn't be bad if he did. But I'm just saying, like, all of these... This, like, list of things that I want my next to be or to look like, that this guy did not, like, eh... It's like...Eh. You know, that a friend of mine really had to say, "Jai, shame on you," you know? Like, "Shame on you for not even, is he kind to you when... You know, when you go on dates with him"? I'm like, "Yeah. I mean, he's actually the kindest I've ever had," you know? And they're like, "What really matters"?

Joyce Meyer: We judge way too much on appearances...

Jai Williams: Exactly.

Joyce Meyer: And God looks at the heart. I know somebody, right now, that will be getting married in a few months and loves loves, loves, loves, loves the guy she's gonna marry. But she said, "My first look at him would have not been anybody that I would have been even remotely interested in". But when she opened up her heart and gave him a chance, he had all the qualities that she wanted in a person, except he didn't look the way she thought she wanted her spouse to look. So, how many people and emotions marry somebody because of the way they look, based on feelings? And they really don't have a handle on what true love is at all. And so, when the other things start coming out, then that good looking person doesn't look so good anymore.

Ginger Stache: Well, and also that leads to so much of the problems in the world. Right now, people who are judging one another because they look different. Or, you know, their skin is a different color, or they don't respond in the same way as I would to something.

Joyce Meyer: Or they do something you don't think they should do.

Ginger Stache: Exactly. So, I think this conversation is so much bigger than just our relationships, which are hugely important, but it's societal. It's about culture, right now.

Joyce Meyer: It really is.

Ginger Stache: And there are a lot of choices that we have to make that says, "I need to know who this person is before I decide," you know, "If I'm gonna be their friend or not before I write them off".

Joyce Meyer: Right.

Jai Williams: It's just so much division, and you kinda touched on it, Erin. There's so much division in the church. Like, I mean, you know, you got the different denominations within Christianity that are warring against each other. And it's just... It's like, so it definitely goes beyond Romantic relationships, husbands, dating, and things like that. It goes... It's big. It's about, can I love my neighbor when we disagree on things that we believe the Bible says? Because we have people that are believing certain things that... Two different people that are devout Christians that believe this scripture says this, it's their interpretation based off of their experience and their reality. Like, you know, that they will literally dislike each other. And I've seen it in the church where they would almost dislike each other because they believe this and the other person believes this, but we're both Christian. Like, we're both... We both love Jesus. And so, this is a conversation that we need to figure out and bridge the gap on, how do we love when we disagree, how do we agree to disagree and still say, "You're still my brother or sister in Christ," you know, how do we do that?

Joyce Meyer: So, we could talk about what I just did, if you want to?

Erin Cluley: Let's do it.

Ginger Stache: What did you just do?

Jai Williams: Cuz people sure don't always agree with what you're about to say!

Joyce Meyer: Well, I don't like stiff, starchy, judgmental, critical, religious, Christians.

Erin Cluley: Amen, Joyce!

Joyce Meyer: People who just... They've got a rule about everything and it's their own rules. And actually, when Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished," he meant that old system of legalism. Now, obviously, we still follow the moral laws of the Old Testament. But all of the rules and regulations, and the dietary laws, and all these, I mean, there were certain materials you couldn't wear together, and sacrifices, and you couldn't... Everything was a, you couldn't do, you know? And so, a lot of people, today... Well, some people. I don't know about a lot. They really believe, that like, having a tattoo is very sinful.

Ginger Stache: And there's a scripture in the Bible, right, you think they're getting that from?

Joyce Meyer: Well, in Leviticus, and I don't know the exact reference, it says that you should not cut your body for the dead, for like, some kind of remembrance for the dead. So, right there's your motive. You know, people often don't look beyond the motive. So, there is a scripture in Isaiah somewhere, and I don't... I wish I would have brought these references with me. In the Amplified Bible, it says that some of these people... Not the ones who disagree, but that people would get tattooed, or engraved on their hand, "I belong to the Lord," and I just thought that was so neat. You know, to actually, put a sign on your body for the devil to have to look at all the time.

Ginger Stache: That's commitment.

Joyce Meyer: You know, because the Bible does say in Ephesians that we are marked and branded by the Holy Spirit as God's own. So, actually, we do have a tattoo on us that the devil can see, every one of us, it's just not one with ink. So, I recently, was in a situation where all the stars lined up, and I got two tattoos.

Ginger Stache: Not one, but two.

Joyce Meyer: I got one on my back. I have a cross on my back that says, "I belong to Jesus". And I didn't... You know, I didn't put it where everybody could see it. It's my own business. It's between me and God. And I just wanted to make that statement that I'm his. And then, I had one put on my foot that people can see that says, "Love". And I did that to always remind me to walk in love.

Ginger Stache: That's great.

Joyce Meyer: And so, I thought... I've only shared it in one meeting, and I didn't know what I'd get, but I mean, people got up on their feet, they were clapping and cheering. Now, I know that we will get some letters, and some phone calls, and some comments that people believe that is sinful. But you can't find that under the new covenant. And Jesus looks at a person's heart. And so, it's why people do things that matters so much to him. And so... You know, I had an experience, one time. I walked in a Starbucks and there was a girl there waiting on us. There were some other people with me. And her hair was about four different colors. And going in about five different directions.

Jai Williams: Sounds like my kind of gal.

Joyce Meyer: She had tattoos and piercings everywhere you could have them. Well, I immediately... My religiosity, you can feel it stand up. It's like, "Oh, this girl has got issues. She has got... She's one of those wi..." you know.

Erin Cluley: "Those wild ones".

Ginger Stache: You just start building a picture around who they are.

Joyce Meyer: Right. But there was a man with us from England, who was more mature in that area, and he had gotten over all that a long time ago. So, he just kinda stepped around me a little bit, and he just said, "I love your hair. How do you get it to do that"? And he just struck up this great conversation with her. And so, really, a lot of times we, as Christians, say that we want revival. But the truth is, most churches, if they had a revival, they would be so judgmental about the people that came in. Because they're not all gonna be pretty like you and look like you. And some of 'em may have tattoos and they may have piercings, and... But that doesn't really tell you anything about their heart.

Erin Cluley: I think that's so good. It reminds me of when I watched "The chosen". And so, you got to see...

Joyce Meyer: The series.

Erin Cluley: Yeah, the series "The chosen".

Ginger Stache: About Jesus.

Erin Cluley: About Jesus. Sorry, I only gave you like one word. Everybody's to guess what I'm talking about.

Jai Williams: I did not. I said, "'the chosen,' girl, what's that"?

Erin Cluley: Joyce and Ginger helped me out there on that one.

Joyce Meyer: Well, it's good. You should watch it.

Erin Cluley: Watching Jesus and how he related to people. They did such a good job of depicting him. And it made me see him in a whole different way. That it isn't... He's not letting you get away with things... If your heart's not in the right spot. But he loved people where they are, and he cared more about their heart and what they were going through, and why they did it. That just really stood out to me in that series. And I think that, that part gets glossed over a lot, in the world that we live in. And I think in the church, specifically, we forget that it is the motive, and it's not, "Did you do your list... Like, did you check your list off for today to make you a really good Christian? And if not, well, then you don't qualify".

Joyce Meyer: And if we have the wrong attitude, we write people off...

Erin Cluley: We do.

Joyce Meyer: And make decisions about them when we don't even know them at all. We don't give people an opportunity to get to know them. And one of the statements I made in my book on loving people that's hard to love is we need to learn to love people as they are, not the way we want them to be. And that doesn't mean they're right about everything, but you're certainly not gonna change 'em by hating them. So, we have to set the example. And that was one of the things that Dave did for me, that is part of the large reason why I'm sitting here today, is he loved me, as is. And he prayed for me to change. But he knew that he could not change me. So, he didn't try to. And we're always trying to change people. And the more you try to fit somebody into your mold of what you want them to be, the more they can't stand you. Especially, if it's somebody like you said, who doesn't wanna be controlled. And I'm the same way. It's like... Dave loves to help me. And he tells me, ever... You know, I was gone last week, for a week. And he picked me up at the airport. And I wasn't in the car three minutes when he had already given me three pieces of advice. And I said, "I don't want your advice. I don't..."

Ginger Stache: I don't know how you survived that week without him.

Joyce Meyer: "I just don't want your advice". He said, "I'm just trying to help you". I said, "I don't wanna be helped. I want you to just let me make my own decisions". We go through that all the time. He just wants to help me. And I... Like, this morning, I was using one of these little things that you pick out threads with. You know, and I was trying to get a tag out of a piece of clothes. And he was like, "Don't do that like that"! He said, "You're doing it toward your face". I said, "I have been doing this for years. I am not gonna stick my eye".

Ginger Stache: "You'll poke your eye out".

Joyce Meyer: Of course, at this point, we've been married so long, we just make a big joke out of it.

Ginger Stache: Well, I love the fact... And you mentioned this in the book, and you mentioned it earlier that loving people doesn't mean justifying what they did or what they do. You know, maybe you've been hurt, but still loving them in spite of that. And it also doesn't mean you have to have a relationship with them necessarily, and it doesn't even mean that you have to like them. You can love them, and be kind to them, and treat them in a loving way without liking them. You know, you think about people in the world that, maybe, you're having a hard time loving, right now. It may not be that way a year from now. Like, there were times in my kids' life... And I love my kids like crazy, but there were times that I did not like them very well. And I would say, you know, "I love you so much, but I'm not liking you, right now". And I just think that's kind of a release to people is to realize that it doesn't mean that everything's perfect. People don't have to be perfect to love them in a godly way.

Joyce Meyer: And God's not asking you to be abused or let somebody walk all over you. But even if somebody... Even if you have to leave somebody because they have abused you, you still need to love them. But what does that mean? I think it's important for us to get that on this program. You do ex... Jesus laid it out so plainly. He said you forgive them, you pray for them. You bless and do not curse them. And to bless means to speak well of and to curse means to speak evil of. So, you have to stop telling everybody what they did to you. You can't talk about them in a bad way. And if your enemy's hungry, you feed him. And if he's thirsty, you give 'em something to drink. So, it's... It's become so clear, to me, that if you hurt me, that doesn't mean that maybe I don't confront you, or we don't talk about it, but if it's getting nowhere, and we're just gonna be arguing, it's not my place to hate you. It's my place to pray for you. And if you pray for somebody on a regular basis that's been mean to you, you cannot keep hating them very long. You will be able to forgive them because that prayer will work something in your heart. So, you pray for the person. You stop talking bad about them. And you get willing, if they have a need and you know about it, that you will help meet that need, no matter how you feel about it.

Jai Williams: I'm getting... I get emotional thinking about this, right? Because, like, I've done a lot of work to try to like, really love, you know, like the people that were a part of like, what destroyed my family, you know? And like, I'm thinking about, I think, it was chapter 16. I think, like... And that resonated, even the title alone is "It's just too hard".

Joyce Meyer: Or it's not fair.

Jai Williams: Like, you see, like... And it said: "Some things may be hard, but they're not too hard. And I believe God anoints and empowers his people to do difficult things at times. If we believe it's too hard, we quit before we've even tried". And so, I was like, "I can't quit". And even though... It's been... I've been divorced now a year: I still don't want to see the mistress. I don't wanna see him. I don't wanna see his new wife. I don't wanna see any of it. Like, and that's okay to have that boundary. But it's so freeing to me, and I, oftentimes, take it for granted, you know, that we're able to sit here and discuss what's... With you, you know, like, you're a general in the faith. Like, people always say that. And I'm like, "Yes. And she's amazing. She's cool. She has cute little..."

Joyce Meyer: "She has a tattoo".

Jai Williams: I didn't even say that. I'm just like, "She has cute polish on her toes of little flowers and stuff. Like, she's so fancy," you know, I love it. But just... What you just shared with the tattoo like and how you share... Like, it just shows that someone... Is as mature as you, can honestly admit when you're... When you're having an immature moment and judging someone for something, but that you can also allow yourself to keep growing and changing. And that gives me, and I'm sure, a lot of people, so much hope to know that "Yes, I still have areas of immaturity, but if someone that's a general like Joyce can say, 'you know what? God's still working on me and improving me, but I have to do the work,'" and sometimes, take a big step, like goin' and get a tattoo. You know, it gives me hope to know that, I too, can like, really get to a place where I really do, like, I can really love him... Not in that way. I ain't trying to Romantically love him at all. But like, love him, again.

Joyce Meyer: But see, even the feelings that you're having, you don't wanna be around the mistress, you don't... There's really... God understands all that and... But that's not, not loving them. The loving them is the forgiving them. And really, you do that for your own sake. I mean, you can stay mad at them "Until the cows come home," as they say, and it's not gonna bother them, you know.

Jai Williams: Right.

Joyce Meyer: So, you forgive for your own sake, so you can have some peace. They may not deserve your forgiveness, but you do deserve peace. You pray for them. Pray for them to be happy. Pray for them to have a good relationship.

Jai Williams: Jesus.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah, Jesus, yeah.

Jai Williams: Okay.

Joyce Meyer: But see, when we pray for people, it's not like God's gonna give 'em a brand-new house and a big, fancy car. Probably the first thing he's gonna give 'em is some revelation about what they've truly done or how they behaved. And you don't talk bad about 'em to other people. And if they ever did have a real serious need, to be willing to meet that need. And I went through that.

Jai Williams: Whew...

Joyce Meyer: I went through that with my mom and dad who abused me. And I just wanna say this for the sake of the audience, and this will probably help you. I ended up... God asked me to take care of them but we don't have time for that whole story. But they ended up in nursing home care for ten years with me footing the bill, which was not cheap. And I went to see them every other week, and one of my daughters went the odd weeks. And I can sit here and tell you that in ten years there was not one time that I went to that nursing home that I wanted to go. I didn't feel like going. I didn't enjoy the visit. But I knew it was what God wanted me to do. And the thing that we have to get through our heads is Jesus did not want to go to the cross. He asked the father three times to "Take this cup from me". But he always said, "But I'll do your will". And so, that's the thing. If we're ever gonna get rid of this problem, is we have to stop living by how we feel and justifying our feelings, and say, "I'm gonna live in obedience". I've been... This past week, it's like everything I'm looking at is obedience, obedience, obedience, obedience, obedience. That's the only way we prove our love for God, is by obeying him.

Ginger Stache: That's so hard to walk through. It's just so difficult. And I had a situation, a lot of years ago, and that's why God works through time in a beautiful way, but it was just such a terrible situation and someone who hurt me very, very badly. Just very publicly, told all kinds of lies, and it was just a terrible, heart-wrenching experience because this was someone that I counted as a friend. And it was just awful. And I went through such a long time of anger and bitterness and I... That name was everywhere. The name of this person was like, all I can think of, you know? And you're just so hurt and so angry. And so, after a long time of that, I began to like, "God, I can't keep this up". You know, "I can't be who you want me to be anymore. I don't even feel like myself". And so, I started little by little, when I could, doing some of those things that you're talking about. Stop telling everybody else about that person, that was one of the things.

Joyce Meyer: That's a big step right there.

Ginger Stache: It was hard.

Joyce Meyer: Because every time you talk about it, you stir it up yourself.

Ginger Stache: Yeah. And when it's that much in your... The forefront of your mind, it comes up all the time, you know, because you just want people to know. And so, then the other one was... The hard one of, begin praying for good things for this person and forgiving. And I'll tell ya, I didn't even realize it until years later, and I could not remember this person's name. And, to me, that was like God saying, "I've done this complete healing in your life where I have taken the hurt from your mind". And still pray for that person. I still do. Because what happened still comes up. Because I remember their first name and I pray for them. But I honestly, cannot remember their last name, which is a huge, huge step. And, to me, it's just a miraculous thing that God has done. And, at one point, I was like, "What is wrong with me? I need to remember that". And God just very gently put on my heart, it's like, "No, you don't need that in your life. You don't need that now". And so, I'm just so grateful for what God does when I couldn't possibly do it.

Joyce Meyer: Well, I am really trusting God that this book is going to help lots, and lots, and lots of people. 'cause there are so many people... Just our discussion here today, who are literally making themselves miserable and ruining their lives over a feeling. And God just asks us, he demands that we love one another. Jesus said, "I'm leaving you with one commandment". One... If you do this one thing, then everything else is gonna work out all right. "Love people the same way that I have loved you".

Ginger Stache: And, Jai, you've already come so far.

Jai Williams: Yeah, I feel it. I feel it. And I feel closer to God because of the anger and frustration and almost hatred... Like, there's a thin line between that, you know? So, the fact that, like, the more I allow God to fill me up with love, I feel closer to him because he is love. You know, he is love. And so, like, there was a point in this whole journey that I felt so disconnected to God. That's because I was so filled up with all of the junk of being angry, which I do believe that there's a season for all of that stuff. When you're done wrong, like, it's a season to mourn, and be upset, and things like that. But like, there has come a time where I'm like, "I'm tired of being angry". It's exhausting. I'm tired of being right. I'm tired of being angry. I just want the love of God to wash over me so that I could forget his name. No.

Ginger Stache: You know, more or less. It may not be a physical forgetting of his name, but God will give you exactly what you need for you to realize the healing that he has brought in your life that you never knew was possible.

Joyce Meyer: The reason why we're hurt by... Like you said, the person that hurt you, you counted a friend, your husband hurt you, my parents hurt me, your husband hurt you. People can't hurt you if you don't love them. Because if you don't love 'em, you don't care. You're not as touched. You don't like it, but you're not as touched, you know, by what people say. And so, you can't... You just can't love and never get hurt.

Ginger Stache: That's true.

Erin Cluley: I think, one really... One thing that's really exciting for me about this book release of yours is when you wrote "Do it afraid," you wrote that a cou... I mean, the process of writing a book takes some time. And God knew what was gonna come. So, when that book was released, the pandemic had just happened, and we were all full of fear.

Joyce Meyer: And we didn't know that when I wrote the book.

Erin Cluley: You had no idea when you wrote that book that it was gonna be that moment. Well, now, it's a couple of years past that point, and you have this book coming out at a time when we've all lived through a pandemic. We've walked through really hard issues, as a culture, and individually, in our homes, where we have been with these people all the time.

Ginger Stache: All the time.

Joyce Meyer: Oh, all the time!

Erin Cluley: They're always there.

Ginger Stache: He never goes to work anymore. I just got too personal, sorry.

Erin Cluley: You wanna talk about it some more?

Joyce Meyer: Well, Dave and I have worked together for 40 years.

Ginger Stache: Oh, that's amazing.

Erin Cluley: You should write a book on this, but I just think God's timing is so perfect, and it makes me excited to see how now we're ready for this message. We need, now more than ever, to hear, how do we love these people in our lives, that we now, know we need to.

Joyce Meyer: And I just think we have the totally wrong understanding of what love is. I really believe that everybody connects it to their feelings and that's just not what it is. It's not theory. It's not a sermon. It's action. It's how you treat people.

Ginger Stache: That's so important, love is not theory. It's not only when everything's perfect. It's not only when I'm not getting hurt, or when everyone knows I'm right, you know? Love is something that only God can help us really do, in the way that he wants us to. So, we have joyce's book available for you today, of course. If you would like to get it, go to joycemeyer.org/talkitout and you can get the book for any amount. We just wanna make sure that you're getting what God's word says about how to love in the way that he does, and see how it changes, not only your life, but your family's life, the people all around you. Every step that you take that is kind of a swallow of your pride and a lot of hard things, every one of them will be worth it in the long run. So, it's always, do that thing today that you'll be glad you did later. So, we wanna make sure not only that, but that we let you know about something else very, very important. And that is that our women's conference is so soon. It is right around the corner. It's the love life women's conference. So, Joyce is gonna teach you more there about how to love those difficult people. And we can still have you join us. It's not too late. You can still register. You can be there in person. September 22nd is when it all begins, right here, in st. Louis, Missouri. Or you can join us online, either way. So go to joycemeyer.Org and find out how to join us. We're all going to be there. We're gonna have so much fun.

Joyce Meyer: It's our 40th anniversary, 40th women's conference. Please come and join us.

Ginger Stache: Yeah, well, I do love you all...

Jai Williams: We love you too.

Ginger Stache: So much.

Jai Williams: It's good to know that. It's so good to know that we are on the good list.

Ginger Stache: You're not on the bad list.

Joyce Meyer: Let's just all say it, "I love you, I love you all, I love you all, I love you.

Joyce Meyer: And we love all of you, too.

Ginger Stache: And we'll see you next time.

Ladies: Bye.