Perry Stone - Will America Collapse Internally As Did Ancient Rome?
Summary:
In this Manna-Fest episode, Perry Stone and Bill Cloud draw striking parallels between the United States and the ancient Roman Empire, warning that America, like Rome, risks internal collapse rather than external conquest. They trace America’s founding as a covenantal republic inspired by biblical Israel—not a democracy—and highlight how Rome fell due to excessive welfare, heavy taxation destroying the middle class, moral decay, and overextended military. Concluding that current economic, social, and spiritual trends mirror Rome’s downfall, they stress the urgency of learning from history to avoid repeating its fate.
America in Prophecy Series
Welcome to the Manna-fest telecast. As you know, we’re doing a series that deals with America—not only America in prophecy but America’s future destiny. We’ve laid a foundation of why Bill and I go back to the Old Testament scripture, and we use that phrase because you’re familiar with it: the five books of Moses. We talk about blessings and curses.
We’ve already laid that foundation out. We’ve talked a little bit about America’s pattern with ancient Israel. Today, what we’re going to do is something that I have been intrigued with for many, many years, and that is how the United States has a perfect pattern to the ancient Roman Empire.
Rome’s Internal Collapse
Some professors try to deny this, but you really can’t deny it when you go into great detail. You have to ask yourself this question: What brought down the Roman Empire? The Roman Empire was never overthrown by an invading empire; it actually deteriorated from within.
This is a warning that economists, sociologists, and historians in the United States, even some of the big Ivy League universities like Harvard and Yale and Dartmouth, have been saying that we could be on a very similar track as the ancient Roman Empire.
Lessons from History
It’s good to have with me today Bill Cloud, who is a colleague in ministry and a very dear friend of many years. We were just reminiscing about some of the unusual stuff that we went through in our earlier ministry. When I used to go to Deland, Florida, and preach all the time, Bill, there was a philosopher by the name of Hegel who said this: «What experience and history teaches us is this: People and government never have learned anything from history or acted on principles deducted from it.»
Winston Churchill is quoted as saying, «The one thing that we have learned from history is that we don’t learn from history.» Now, the one thing that we’ve tried to point out to people is that America does have a pattern of ancient Israel.
Early Spiritual Foundations
Bill, you’ve done a lot of study on the possible Jewish connection of Christopher Columbus. You’ve done a study talking about how the Puritans came to this nation, and it was really about religious freedom and not about forming a democracy. Talk to us a little bit about the early history of America from the spiritual side and the difference between a democracy and a republic.
We were founded as a republic, not a democracy. Most people have never heard that. Well, first of all, going back to the early founders and specifically Plymouth Plantation, you know, the Pilgrim William Bradford, the Massachusetts Bay Colony—which would be Boston, Salem, that area—those people didn’t come as the people of Jamestown did.
Covenant with God
Jamestown was established more or less to turn a profit, to plant tobacco, and to render the Virginia Company a profit. But the Pilgrims, the Puritans, the Massachusetts Bay Plymouth Plantation, they came to establish communities of faith, and they believed they had to come into covenant with God and with one another.
In fact, John Winthrop wrote a book called «A Model of Christian Charity, ” and I’m going to paraphrase what he says: They believed that God was bringing them across the sea just like He brought Israel through the sea. They were coming to New England to establish what amounts to a commonwealth of Israel because they saw themselves in that same vein.
A Byword Among Nations
In fact, at one point in time, there was a move to try to make Hebrew the official language of those colonies, but Winthrop said words to this effect (this is not a direct quote): „We are entering into a covenant with God. God has ratified that covenant, and we know that God expects us to live up to that covenant.“ So he said, „If we are not faithful to that covenant, we shall become, and he quotes Moses, ‘a story and a byword among the nations.’“
Now, back to or onto the issue of democracy as opposed to a republican form of government—whether it’s a republican senator or congressman. Well, that’s what I was about to say: You’ve got republican senators, you’ve got democratic congressmen, etc. We break that down into those two parties.
Republic vs. Democracy
What we’re talking about is not republican with a big „R“ or democrat. That’s what I want to make clear. So when you get ready to say we are a republic, it has nothing to do with Republicans. It has nothing to do with the Democratic Party. It has to do with the philosophy of government.
Our founders were adamantly against the notion of democracy. In The Federalist Papers, John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison wrote vehemently against the excesses and dangers of democracy. What was their definition of democracy? Well, they understood, as we should, that democracy is by definition „people rule, ” and the inherent flaw in that form of governance is people.
Dangers of Pure Democracy
Because what’s in the heart of people from their youth? Wickedness, according to Genesis 8. So they understood that power could not be given exclusively to the people. It couldn’t be given exclusively to the executive branch, the judicial branch, or the legislative branch. That’s why they devised a government that operated under the separation of powers. You disperse the power around so that no one branch—not even the people—has all the power.
So they established a constitutional republic. „Republic“ is a word that means „in the interest of the people.“ „Democracy“ is a word that means „the people rule.“ So then, in a democracy, people can decide today, „We want this, ” and so we’re going to make a law to achieve it, and tomorrow, that law may change. It will ebb and flow depending on the whims of the people, whereas a republic is something where there is a law established, and everybody works within the parameters of that law.
Tyranny in Democracy
The problem with democracy is if you have good people—let’s say godly people or good people—making the law, then it benefits everybody. But if you get a Hitler, or you get just an ungodly dictatorship in, then it corrupts the people and the whole nation goes to ruin. As a matter of fact, that’s one of the things that, in The Federalist Papers, these founders wrote аbout: if you can assume that everybody’s always going to be good, then a democracy may work. However, how likely is it that everyone is always going to be good, just, and moral? It’s not very likely.
Therefore, you open the door to tyranny and despotism. In fact, Madison, Washington, and all of our founders wrote against the dangers of a direct democracy—where the people rule—because if you want to see democracy in action, go look at the French Revolution; that’s what you’ll end up with.
Washington’s Warning
Let me add this: George Washington—I’m going to paraphrase what he said; I have the quote somewhere but I’ll just paraphrase—said that America would continue until Americans get to a place of thinking like Esau, that is, „I have this birthright, but what good is it to me? If you’ll give me what I want, then I’ll give you my birthright.“ Washington equated the birthright in our context to our liberties and our freedoms.
Wow. He said that America would continue until Americans want a bowl of soup or health care or a free cell phone. That they—In exchange for that—will give away what they view as a meaningless birthright, which is the liberties of a free man. Washington warned 200 years ago that when that happens, America has set itself up for a tyrant, a despot, and a king. That is incredible.
Signs of an Empire
Well, let me talk to you for a moment about this: The United States started out as a colony under England—13 colonies. It then established itself as a union of states and then went into a republic. It became a major world nation among nations. I believe America probably became an empire at the time when we gained hold of the atomic bomb. And here are what I call five signs of an empire:
Number one, if you are an empire, you must lead the world economically. You are the superpower economically; we’ve been there. Number two, you must have the greatest military on Earth; we’ve been there. Number three, your language must be the main language spoken throughout the Earth, and English is spoken just about everywhere, from taxi drivers in India to Indonesia; you know they can speak English, so English is a universal language.
Global Influence
Number four, you must lead the world in decisions, meaning the world basically follows your decision-making. And number five, you must be able to control peace and war cycles, which absolutely America has done. So, I believe America is an empire, and I’m not going to try to put a date on when we moved from just a republic to, quote unquote, a democracy to empire status.
But I will say this: America has amazing patterns similar to the ancient Roman Empire, and I want to go over this list. Bill, if you know of any more that you want to add, feel free to do that.
Parallels with Rome
Alright, first of all, both Rome and America were leading superpowers; both had the eagle as an emblem; both had a senate (I say „had“ speaking of Rome in the past instead of „has, ” so you’ll see past tense on a lot of these statements); both had a Capitol Hill; both used the military to keep the peace; both occupied the Middle East (this is important); both allowed the killing of infants; both were preoccupied with their wealth; both raised taxes and used taxes to pay for government jobs; both began a welfare system.
In fact, Rome’s dole system eventually helped collapse the empire economically; both used stadiums for sporting events; both saluted the flag; both had a national anthem. And Bill, I know you’ve studied this as well. I mean, there are probably 20 to 25 parallels that you and I have talked about, up to how Rome had slaves, but there was a slavery element broken in Rome; it just goes on and on.
Roman Influence in America
Our architecture is Roman and Greek architecture in Washington, D.C.; it goes on and on. We really are the modern continuation of what was once the Imperial Roman Empire. One emperor; we have one president. And the way that it just goes on and on—it’s incredible.
Something we said in previous programs was that America is a melting pot; it’s an eclectic society with all these different views and perspectives. But one of them that is very prevalent—and ironically, in tandem with our fascination with Israel of old—was our fascination with Rome and our federal buildings looking like those Roman buildings.
Wheat and Tares
And we get into—and I don’t want to take us off onto something else—but we get into the fact that America is a kind of mixed and mingled nation, and that has negative connotations. Even though we’ve got the wheat, we’ve also got the tares sown in. I say something— you do a masterful job in the book expounding on the wheat and the tare, because that’s where we’re at right now: the mixing of. And you talk about the mix of the wheat and the tare.
My wife said, „That’s the problem we’ve got in America. We are mingling truth with that which is not true and ignorance with knowledge.“ That’s right. So when you’ve got this, ultimately there’s going to come a point in time when both begin to produce their fruit, just like the parable tells us.
Conflicting Seeds
So now we’re at that place, and this is what I believe—this is what you’re saying—we’re at that place where we’re seeing that other seed. If we want to call it Rome, if we want to call it Babylon, Egypt, or whatever, it’s beginning to bear its fruit, and it’s in direct conflict with that other seed, which is that association with the patterns of Israel, the Word of God, and the covenant—the instructions that God gave to His people. It’s in direct conflict.
And before I forget this part, you said something that triggered a thought, and that is you said that your opinion is that America was transformed into an empire when we attained the atomic bomb, right? Interestingly enough, that was in 1945; that was 70 years ago, and of course, I don’t have to say any more for you to know the sign; we’re into biblical numbers, you know. And now we’re declining as an empire, and the world is getting the nuclear bomb. Wow.
Historical Quotes on Decline
Okay, now, Bill, what I want to do is give you some quotes. I have a lot of quotes. In fact, I’m going to say to the producer, you don’t have to put all of these up, because you’re going to spend two weeks getting this program ready if you do. I’m going to read them; the ones you want to put up, you can put up.
But let me read to you—this was a letter dated May 23, 1857, and it says, „Your republic will be pillaged, ” talking about the future of America, „and ravaged in the 20th century just as the Roman Empire was by barbarians of the 5th century, with the difference that the devastation of the Roman Empire came from abroad, while our barbarians will be the people of your own country and the product of your own institutions.“
Causes of Rome’s Fall
There have been a number of books written; one of my side studies has been the past couple of years to study historical books written by great professors that deal with the Roman Empire. My question, Bill, was always, „What really made Rome fall?“ Gibbon wrote „The History of the Roman Empire, ” and he gives you ideas as to what it was, and I’ll get to those in a moment.
But here’s some more quotes, fam. With declining power and increasing impoverishment, the Roman Empire in the West, unable to defend itself against disintegration from within and invasion from without, staggered slowly into its inevitable dissolution. Then here’s another quote: „It was the loss of economic freedom, even more than the loss of political freedom, which had disastrous results upon private initiative and finally undermined Greco-Roman civilization.“
Economic and Spiritual Decay
Here’s another quote: „The decline and fall of the Roman Empire—that is to say, of the ancient civilization as a whole—had two aspects: the political, social, and economic on one hand, and watch this, the intellectual and spiritual on the other.“ Here’s another quote: „The cities which had been created and sustained the higher forms of economic life gradually decayed, and the majority of them practically disappeared from the face of the earth.“
This is an interesting one, and this is going to take a little longer to quote, but I want to give you this, because I thought that this was extremely interesting: A.M. Jones wrote this: „The fall of Rome spelled the fall of the Empire; it even meant the end of the world.“ A century before him, Linius had written—and he was an early church father, by the way—that the fall and ruin of the world will soon take place, but it seems that nothing of the kind is to be feared as long as the city of Rome stands intact.
Key Factors in Rome’s Collapse
But when the capital of the world has fallen, who can doubt that the end will come for the affairs of men and for the whole world? It is that city which sustains all things. Here’s another quote: „Other historians, according to the temper of their times, have emphasized the empire’s military decline, its political or social weakness, or its economic decay.“
Now, without going into more quotes—because we could quote on and on and on—I don’t want to bore you with quotes. When I have done my study on what caused the collapse of Rome, let me go over it very quickly:
Welfare and Dependency
Number one is that they came up with something called the dole, meaning it was a good plan to help people who didn’t have jobs. What eventually happened is the people of Rome discovered that they could make more money by not working and living off the government than they could by working. So what happened is—now check this out—people began to quit good jobs to go on government assistance in Rome.
They had to pass a law in Rome that if you had a job, you had to keep your job, because they had to get taxes from the people with jobs to give the money to the people without jobs. So point number one was that what started out as a great welfare system in Rome ended up having so many people on it that the government would actually help them with food, etc. People came to the conclusion, „Why should I work when I can get money this way?“ And what happened is they couldn’t sustain it.
Excessive Taxation
Number two is the taxation on the farmers. They started realizing they could get money from food because everybody’s got to have food. There were thousands and thousands of farms in Rome, and the government began to tax the farmers until they literally walked off their land and left it for another nation.
Number three is—now this is important—everybody hear this: The call of Rome was „tax the rich.“ That was literally the call of Rome. The taxation of the Roman Empire became so great, Bill, that 400 senators had no children while they were senators because they couldn’t afford to have kids! It cost so much to live in the Roman Empire with the taxation.
Infrastructure and Military Decline
So when I studied Rome, the infrastructure began to fall apart: the bridges and roads were aging. Now in America, they had to try to raise money, and now they’re saying, „Okay, gas is low; let’s impose a huge gas tax to use that money for infrastructure.“ The situation in Rome was that the bridges all began to age, the roads began to decay, they were everywhere in the empire.
The military was trying to keep peace in all these nations. The military, and I have to say, I’m concerned about the military—it is now so disheartened with things that have happened and decisions that have been made—that the cutbacks are a picture of Rome. Because when the military became discouraged, the empire started having serious problems with the barbarians on the outside and keeping the peace.
Destruction of the Middle Class
I’m telling you that the bottom line to Rome was that they needed more government money for those who weren’t working, and they taxed the people who had it out of oblivion. The middle class was destroyed. What you ended up with in Rome was either the aristocratic very wealthy or the extremely poor; there was no middle class.
We are being warned right now that the middle class in America is being squeezed by the taxation. Even my—let me just say this, and I’m not going to be anti-health care or anything here—but when the new health care law kicked in, we paid full health care for all of our full-time workers. My health care went up $660,000 a year. No, that’s not what I’m paying; it went up for my full-time workers a total of $60,000 in one year.
Concerns for America’s Future
Alright, now, how can people afford to live when you’re an independent person and you’re trying to get health care? And you know you don’t qualify for benefits and you’ve got to pay—not only for you, but for other people too. Now again, I’m not trying to make this political. This is a real concern.
We are headed, Bill, in the direction of the ancient Roman Empire. I’ve studied this for 15 years, and I’m getting more concerned about it. I’ve got 50 seconds to close this out for us if you can.
Spiritual Roots of Decline
Well, if I could sum it up, it’s just this: The political issues are a reflection of the spiritual issues. So good. The things that are happening are a reflection of what’s happening in our churches, in our synagogues, and in our homes. It’s going to fit the patterns of history.
Something else that comes to mind, Perry, is very simple, but it’s so profound and relevant: God teaches us the same thing over and over and over again. The same way we try to tell our children, „How many times am I going to have to tell you this?“ So true.
Learning from History
And so we go back and we look at history, and we think, „Oh, that was interesting, ” but we never take the lesson away from it. For some reason, it’s like the guy who gets in the car, steals it, and thinks he’s going to get away, while 15 helicopters are in the air. We just think, „It ain’t going to happen to me.“ And that is a terrible deception.
Hey, thank you for joining me. Now, look, Bill and I have done a book; it’s brand new, and it’s not available in any bookstore anywhere. You can’t walk into a bookstore and get it. It’s only through the ministry: Bill’s ministry. And I’ve got a CD I want to get to you, so stay tuned and be back with me. We’ve got some great announcements coming up.