Matt Hagee - Called To Multiply
Kendal Hagee: Welcome to "The Difference". On today's show, we're talking to best-selling author, John Bevere, about multiplying your God-given potential.
Matt Hagee: John, thank you so much for being here today.
John Bevere: It's so good to be with you guys, Kendal and Matt.
Matt Hagee: And when I welcome you to our television studio, it's somewhat of the most formal setting that we could be in, because we're friends.
John Bevere: We're friends.
Kendal Hagee: I know. We should be...
John Bevere: This is kind of strange right now. Everybody just needs to know that. This is totally strange.
Matt Hagee: If we act unprofessional, it's because we're making this personal today.
John Bevere: Right.
Matt Hagee: And the reason that we've got is that relationship is, you know, for many years, I was able to admire you as an author and a minister. But then in getting to know your family and the heart that your entire family has to see the nations touched by the power of God, it was something that drew me to the Bevere household, because that's something that's very present in the Hagee family. We feel that God has called our family to minister to the nations.
Kendal Hagee: All the gospel.
Matt Hagee: It's all the gospel to all the world and every generation. That's our mission. And Messenger International, you're family's ministry, the one that John and Lisa started, now your sons are so boldly stepping into and walking into, you're seeing nations changed for the glory of God through the power of his gospel. And that makes me just honored to call you a friend and share this earth with someone who has that kind of calling on their life.
John Bevere: Well, it's very similar for us. But there was one additional ingredient and that was when I learned the authenticity of your family. Now I learned about it, that with your dad after I learned that with you. When I met you, I was so touched by how genuine you and Kendal are, how smart you and Kendal are, and...
Matt Hagee: He included me in the pack.
John Bevere: ...The passion that you guys have to reach the nations and to help humanity with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so, you know, that combined with the generational, because we're very similar, we are trying so hard to make this a generational thing to where our grandchildren, we don't want to just have a 20-year plan. We want to have a 200-year plan. We're believing Jesus will be back long before that.
Kendal Hagee: Amen.
John Bevere: But we're planning as if we've got 200 more years.
Kendal Hagee: I love it.
Matt Hagee: Yeah, and it's an essential for the body of Christ to think in those terms, because even in the New Testament, they were saying, you know, be prepared for the day. But that was 2,000 years ago. And here we are, their descendants in the faith, still carrying this message of God's love not only to those that haven't heard it, but to those that need to be reminded of it. And that's one of the things that I love about messenger is, as a pastor, I know that in supporting what messenger is doing, I am taking this message of the gospel of Jesus Christ to people who've never heard it. And, as a pastor, I'm turning around and looking at somebody that I get to see every Sunday. And when they're discouraged or they're asking questions that are tough to answer, there's a resource that they can go to. And I can say, "You need to go look at", and then point them to a teaching that you've done, point them to a teaching that Lisa's done, point them to a conversation that you had the courage to have with your sons about purity or your daughter-in-law's and your sons, as they were walking into marriage, and all of these different challenges that, you know, people of faith in this world face. Messenger International, and you know, John and Lisa Bevere have created those resources for people. The last time you were here, you spoke about a time of testing: you know? You've spoken for us many times. And one of the most recent sermons you shared was about a time of testing. And there's a lot of people who have walked through a time of testing in this, you know, corona-19 COVID season.
John Bevere: Right.
Matt Hagee: And they're asking a question that you addressed in one of your recent works, "God, where are you"?
John Bevere: It's kind of like Joseph. If you look at Joseph, I mean we all love Joseph in the Old Testament: don't we: right? I mean we all just think, woe, what a guy: right? But if you look at Joseph when he shows up, he shows up in Genesis 37. If you haven't read this, you need to read it. Genesis 37 to the end of the book. Okay? But when he shows up, do you know what the very first verse says about Joseph in the Bible? "He told his dad the bad things his brother are doing". He's a tattletale.
And if you go six verses later, do you know what he's doing? He's bragging about the dreams that God gave him, because God gave him these dreams that said, you're going to be a leader, and even your brothers are going to be under your leadership. And so he's bragging about these dreams and talking down to his brothers. So let's just talk about Joseph. How does he show up? We've got a bragger, a tattletale, and he talks down to people. So if God puts him in that position of leadership, let me tell you: he's going to be a narcissistic insecure leader. So what does God say? God says, hey Joseph, we need to work on you. There's some things that need to get out of you.
Now God does not author this: but he knows the end from the beginning. I mean we're bound to time. I can tell you what happened yesterday but I cannot tell you what's going to happen tomorrow, because we are bound by this thing called time. But God is outside of time and God knows the end from the beginning. He knows what people are going to do. And God knows what these brothers are going to do. We all know the story. See, this is what I love about Joseph. He obeys God and he doesn't have a small group. He doesn't have an online Bible study. He doesn't have an online zoom call with his friends, who are strengthening him. He resists this woman and obeys God every single day. You've obeyed God and it gets you the pit and slavery. You obey God every single day by fleeing sexual immorality. And what does it get you? The dungeon for two years, over two years. And you know in that time period in the dungeon, God brought the greatest test to Joseph.
Does anybody know what the greatest test was? He brings two men to him in that dungeon, a butler and a baker, for the king. What's the test? Can Joseph proclaim, to that butler and baker, the faithfulness of God when he hasn't seen one shred of evidence of it in his own life in 12 years? What does Joseph's life exemplify to all of us? Here's what's important that we understand from his life: no man, no woman, no child, no corporation can ever get you out of your destiny. Joseph's brothers said, we will destroy his God-given dream. We will see if he ever leads us. We're selling him into slavery. Yet God said, "I'm so far ahead of you guys. You're actually the fulfillment of that dream".
And if you go six verses later, do you know what he's doing? He's bragging about the dreams that God gave him, because God gave him these dreams that said, you're going to be a leader, and even your brothers are going to be under your leadership. And so he's bragging about these dreams and talking down to his brothers. So let's just talk about Joseph. How does he show up? We've got a bragger, a tattletale, and he talks down to people. So if God puts him in that position of leadership, let me tell you: he's going to be a narcissistic insecure leader. So what does God say? God says, hey Joseph, we need to work on you. There's some things that need to get out of you.
Now God does not author this: but he knows the end from the beginning. I mean we're bound to time. I can tell you what happened yesterday but I cannot tell you what's going to happen tomorrow, because we are bound by this thing called time. But God is outside of time and God knows the end from the beginning. He knows what people are going to do. And God knows what these brothers are going to do. We all know the story. See, this is what I love about Joseph. He obeys God and he doesn't have a small group. He doesn't have an online Bible study. He doesn't have an online zoom call with his friends, who are strengthening him. He resists this woman and obeys God every single day. You've obeyed God and it gets you the pit and slavery. You obey God every single day by fleeing sexual immorality. And what does it get you? The dungeon for two years, over two years. And you know in that time period in the dungeon, God brought the greatest test to Joseph.
Does anybody know what the greatest test was? He brings two men to him in that dungeon, a butler and a baker, for the king. What's the test? Can Joseph proclaim, to that butler and baker, the faithfulness of God when he hasn't seen one shred of evidence of it in his own life in 12 years? What does Joseph's life exemplify to all of us? Here's what's important that we understand from his life: no man, no woman, no child, no corporation can ever get you out of your destiny. Joseph's brothers said, we will destroy his God-given dream. We will see if he ever leads us. We're selling him into slavery. Yet God said, "I'm so far ahead of you guys. You're actually the fulfillment of that dream".
John Bevere: So I want to first of all address what you said earlier. About 15 years ago, the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, "I will bless ministries that build my local church". And I walked into our room with all of our managers of the ministry, and I said, "You know God blesses ministries that build the local church". I said, "From this point forward, everything we do at messenger is going to go through the funnel of 'will this build up and strengthen the local New Testament church?'"
Kendal Hagee: Wow.
John Bevere: And Matt and Kendal, it was like a switch was turned on and our ministry exploded. And that's why I learned experientially that God loves the local New Testament church.
Kendal Hagee: Yes.
John Bevere: Now as far as "God, where are you," that was a message that two years ago, I called our team in. And I said, "We're going to do something that's unprecedented. We need to write and publish this book in the next four months". And they were like, "What"? Yes. And I said, "Because back in the 1980's, I was working for a very large ministry. We had 450 paid staff members. My job was I took care of the guest speakers and the pastor's needs, and he and his family's needs. And there were speakers that came to our church that were, everybody, world-renown ministers", right? And I felt like I was sitting in the vehicle with Jesus. I mean it was so amazing. Okay. But then there were guys that came in, and I thought I was going to a rock concert. And I would watch those guys get up on the platform and I'd watch people get out of wheelchairs.
Matt Hagee: Yeah.
John Bevere: So I was completely confused in the early 1980's. I had just been saved five years. And the Spirit of God spoke to me, and he said, "Son, I've given my church a thimble full of my power to see how she'll handle it, see if she'll market it, make money off of it, use it to draw people to herself". He said, "She hasn't handled it well". And he said, "I let you see this". He said, "Now I'm going to bring my church into a desert and I'm going to refine her character". And he said, "When she comes out of that desert, she'll walk in the greatest move of my spirit there at the scene". Well, two years ago, I said, "Guys, prophetically, God has shown me we're about to come out of this desert. And the greatest attack against us comes just before we come out".
Matt Hagee: Yeah.
John Bevere: If you look at Jesus, he's in the desert being tempted by the devil 40 days. But it's at the very end that's when the notable ones, if you look at David, he's in caves and deserts and in the land of the Philistines for 12 years. But it's at the very end his own 600 men, the last guys that believed in him, want to stone him, because their wives were kidnapped by the Amalekites. I said, "The greatest attack against the body of Christ is about to hit. They need this resource to strengthen them, because we can't have people fainting on these massive attacks. Because if you don't lose heart, you don't faint, God says, you receive the harvest. And we need the whole body of Christ moving in this move of the Spirit". So if you look at, this is, I really believe this is the latter reign what we're about to enter into. If you look at all the moves of God. They've all been locationally. In other words, to experience Brownsville, you had to go to Brownsville. To experience Azusa, you had to go to Azusa. I could go on and on. But if you look at the Book of Acts, it's the former reign. Everywhere they went, no matter what community it was...
Matt Hagee: It's like a wild fire.
John Bevere: ...It just, what happened in Jerusalem in Antioch happened there.
Kendal Hagee: Yes.
John Bevere: And this is what we're about to experience. This is why I'm so excited, because our inner cities need this so desperately.
Matt Hagee: Absolutely.
John Bevere: Our rural areas need this so desperately. The nations I've been to, Lisa and I have been to, we need this outpouring so desperately. And so that book, I wrote to help people understand God hasn't abandoned you.
Kendal Hagee: That's right.
John Bevere: He doesn't put you on a shelf. God doesn't waste time. He's the one that tells us.
Matt Hagee: Correct.
John Bevere: He hasn't neglected you, abandoned you, put you on a shelf. He's not punishing you:
Matt Hagee: Yeah.
John Bevere: He's preparing you.
Kendal Hagee: I like that.
John Bevere: And when you understand that you're in a season of preparation, I mean a navy seals' training is not pretty.
Matt Hagee: No. If you can survive it, then you get to be a seal.
John Bevere: Which 90% of the guys don't. But I'm not saying God would do that. But I'm saying I have a friend, a close friend, who is a navy seal instructor. And so I've grilled him. I've asked him so many questions. And so what we realize is when we're going through this fire, first of all, God will not abandon us. He will not let us go. He will not leave us to the enemy's wishes. He is strengthening us so that we'll walk in a greater measure of power and authority when we come out.
Matt Hagee: And I think that's such an important message for people to hear and be encouraged with. And I want those of you who are watching to know that these resources, you can find out more about them at JohnBevere.com or you can look up their ministry online at Messenger International. But they're available to you so that you can be encouraged in your walk of faith. I think it's such an important message for people to hear, because so many times when the unexpected occurs, so many times when that unforeseen challenge arises, you know, you were mentioning David in Ziklag, and you were talk about Jesus in the desert, and so many examples from the Bible, which I'm going to take a moment and interrupt this conversation, because you have a beautiful way of connecting the things that the Lord impresses upon you back to his word. And I want to publicly appreciate that, because I have listened to so many people say, "I feel", and then that's all you get is a feeling. And whenever you use the words, "I feel" or "I believe," you connect it with the fact of God's word. And that's one of the reasons why it just makes my spirit leap to hear it: you know? So you're talking about...
John Bevere: Well that's a gift and I realize that's a gift. That's a gift of the Holy Spirit and that gift is not for me: it's for his people.
Matt Hagee: Well, it's something that is a blessing to me, so thank you for doing that and connecting it to the word, because, you know, so often people want to utilize that feeling to develop their facts, instead of look to the fact and then interpret their feelings.
John Bevere: So can I give you another story that will really illustrate that?
Matt Hagee: Please do.
Kendal Hagee: Yes.
John Bevere: So the first four years of our ministry, it was hand and mouth. We, I mean literally would have to believe God just for the money to pay our small $700 house payment: right? And about the fourth and a half year, because I'd go outside and I'd pray in a remote area every morning. The Holy Spirit spoke to me, and he said, "I'm going to begin to bless you beyond your wildest imagination". So I'd written two books by that time. They were going nowhere. And this was right before "Bait of Satan" came out. And he said, "I'm going to bless you beyond your wildest imagination, spiritually, socially, in every way". He said, "But it'll be a test to you". And I went, "What"? "It'll be a test".
Matt Hagee: Yeah.
John Bevere: He said...
Matt Hagee: "What kind of a blessing comes with a test"?
John Bevere: "Now people start seeking you out and you're asked to large conferences, are you going to speak your opinion? Are you going continue to trust me for every word? Are you just going to spend money because you have it or you still going to look inside and get my direction"? He said, and it went on and on. Doot, doot, doot. Just like that: right? So I go home and I tell Lisa, "Sit down, Lisa". You know my wife, she's amazing. So I said, "Lisa," and I told her the story. She said, "Why in the first half of that would I think I would have been dancing on our kitchen table and why now am I terrified"? And I said, "You're right: we need to be terrified," because the very last thing the Holy Spirit said to me is he said, "Everyone gets tested in two areas, in dry times and abundant times". And he said, "Most of the fail, fail in abundant times, not dry times".
Matt Hagee: Absolutely, which, you know, Paul wrote that to the New Testament church. He said, "I know how to be blessed in abundance and I know how to go without".
John Bevere: You have to pass both.
Matt Hagee: And he spends those verses talking about two extremes, the good and the bad, the harvest and, you know, the pouring out, the dry season. And then he concludes it with, "I can do all things through Christ".
John Bevere: Right.
Matt Hagee: And a lot of us want to take that and ascribe it to the hard stuff. But how well you handle yourself in the blessed times also determines how much God can trust you to handle more. It's like you were talking about the thimble of God's power and what they had done with it. Um, I am so excited about the things that I see God doing in the world today to encourage and strengthen the body of Christ. Because the Bible says is that he's coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle. Well, you know, spots, they're scrubbed out.
John Bevere: That's good.
Matt Hagee: And wrinkles, they're pressed out.
John Bevere: Ooh. I never thought that far through that.
Matt Hagee: There's a whole lot of things that are being scrubbed and pressed in the body of Christ today, which tells me that he's coming soon and...
John Bevere: I believe that with all my heart.
Matt Hagee: Not only is he coming soon, but he's coming for people who are working. He's coming for people who are continuing to declare. He's coming for people who are continuing to believe. And when we come back, I want to talk about your latest book "X: How to Multiply Your God-Given Potential," because they compliment each other, this context of God's going to pour something out on you. But how you handle it is going to determine how far you can go with it. We're going to talk about, we're going to talk more about that when we come back with John Bevere and his latest book "X". You don't to miss this on "The Difference".
John Bevere: All of us have a call of God on our life. And every single one of us are given unique gifts by God to accomplish that calling. However, many are not accomplishing this calling because they're paralyzed. They're concerned possibly they may miss God or they may do something wrong. I don't know what spirit of influence you're in. You could be a businessman, businesswoman, stay-home mom, in healthcare, in education, in the arts, in government. I don't know. But one thing I do know: you are called to multiply.
For years, I saw being faithful as only being dependable, reliable, consistent, trustworthy. However, the day came, and I remember when it happened when God opened my eyes to show me one of the most important definitions of faithful is to multiply.
What I want to do in this book, I want to help you discover your gifts, I want to help you develop your gifts, and I want you help you multiply your gifts, so you can build the Kingdom of God effectively on this earth, as Jesus has commissioned you to do.
For years, I saw being faithful as only being dependable, reliable, consistent, trustworthy. However, the day came, and I remember when it happened when God opened my eyes to show me one of the most important definitions of faithful is to multiply.
What I want to do in this book, I want to help you discover your gifts, I want to help you develop your gifts, and I want you help you multiply your gifts, so you can build the Kingdom of God effectively on this earth, as Jesus has commissioned you to do.
Matt Hagee: Welcome back to "The Difference". Before we left, we were talking to John about how the Word of God encourages us and how to unlock the power of its potential in our lives. John, your latest book "X", there is the title. It is "X".
Kendal Hagee: Where did you come up with the title?
John Bevere: Seventy-five percent of my staff or team, I should say, is millennials.
Kendal Hagee: I love it.
Matt Hagee: And thank God for that: you know, but the subtitle, "Multiplying your God-given potential". One of the things that has really been an encouragement to me is the resource of this book in having conversations that people in the church need to have. But they build these barriers. And you know, when somebody comes and they ask pastor Matt a question, they expect a pastor Matt answer.
John Bevere: Right.
Matt Hagee: And so when I tell them what the Bible says, they look at me and they immediately kind of give this dismissive, "You're supposed to say that: you're a pastor". And so you've given them what you feel is the truth of God's word, you know, what his Holy Spirit has led you in all truth to. And then they just kind of push it away, because they've got this barrier that's the difference between sacred and secular, is how you've described it in your book. And that, to me, is such a powerful context, because it's a wall that I'm constantly pounding on, trying to get people to tear down in their life, because there is no difference between sacred and secular, as you talk about in "X".
John Bevere: Think about it. Jesus spent most of his ministry outside of four walls of the synagogue. And when he went into the synagogue, it was usually trouble. And think about it, the Bible says that all we're called to do is prepare people for the work of their ministry. Well, over 90% of the people are not in vocational ministry. And um, I had a heart-breaking thing happen recently. It's in the book. You've read it. You've heard me even talk about it at the feast. Um, but a pastor friend of mine, who does a very large conference, and he has a very large auditorium. And there's a well-known doctor in his church. And he's got over 30,000 members in his church. He's walking through the sanctuary the day before the conference, and there's the doctor putting pamphlets on the seats for the delegates. And my pastor friend ran over to him and said, "Doc, doc, we've got interns and we have volunteers that can do this".
Matt Hagee: Yeah.
John Bevere: "Please, I don't want you to have to do this". And the doctor, he said, "Rebuked me, very respectfully but very firmly". And said, "Pastor, I take one week off of my practice, my medical practice, a year so that I can build the kingdom. Please don't take this from me". Matt, I've wept over that.
Matt Hagee: Yeah.
John Bevere: I've wept, because this is the mentality of most people in the church.
Kendal Hagee: Yes.
John Bevere: And what that doctor does is 51 weeks of the year, he goes in to "Earn a living". And one week a year, he gets to build the kingdom. That is such a lie. And that keeps people from having a passion that Billy Graham, or Mother Teresa, or your dad, or you and i, or anyone else that is in vocational ministry has. That doctor's calling, according to the scripture, is every bit as important as my calling...
Matt Hagee: Absolutely.
John Bevere: ...Because his gifts may not be obvious in connecting of the dots of building the kingdom. But the Bible tells me of the gifts that aren't seen, we bestow more honor upon. Just like we would bestow more honor on a liver than we would on a leg. You can live without a leg. You can't live without a liver. So therefore, the liver's function is extremely important: right?
Kendal Hagee: Yes.
John Bevere: If I tried to remove a tumor from somebody, I'd kill them. That doctor has a supernatural ability.
Matt Hagee: You have faith for their resurrection, but your hands would definitely not do the work.
John Bevere: Correct. So that doctor has a supernatural ability to do what he does. But here's the key, and this is the thing that so burdens me. First of all, the first problem is we have the paradigm of I'm in the secular right now. So all my information is going to come from the secular on how I should operate.
Kendal Hagee: That's right.
John Bevere: Instead of realizing I'm gifted supernaturally to do this, I'll use the information, but I'll filter it through that supernatural gift. The second thing that burdens me is the supernatural gift doesn't work unless we have faith.
Matt Hagee: Yeah. It's the activator.
John Bevere: It's the activator, correct. Romans 5:2 says we have access to grace through faith. Now grace is not just our salvation: it empowers us to go beyond our natural ability.
Matt Hagee: "My grace is sufficient for you".
John Bevere: "For my power," God finished it, "My power". He refers to his grace as his power. Paul said, "I labored more than any of the other apostles. It wasn't me: it was the grace of God in me". Now that grace isn't activated unless we believe. Let's give an example. The whole world is saved. Jesus died, because John makes it so clear: he died not only for our sins, he's not only a perpetuation for our sins, but the sins of a whole world.
Matt Hagee: Yeah, "The just or the unjust". There's only one just: that's Jesus.
John Bevere: Right. So the whole world's saved. Why isn't the whole world saved? Why aren't they saved? Because most people in the world right now don't believe that Jesus died for them. They don't believe in saving grace.
Matt Hagee: Yeah.
John Bevere: So the only way you can...
Matt Hagee: That's powerful.
John Bevere: ...Get saving grace is to believe. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (for the whole world): that whoever believes", there's the key, "Believes". Alright. So now let's apply it to the believer. If I don't believe I'm supernaturally gifted, my gifts will lie dormant. And I'm going to expose most people's attitudes right now. Their attitudes in the church is, if I'm godly, I'm kind, I forgive, I'm patient, the gift in me will work. That's not true. Timothy was the most godly man in the New Testament. Paul wrote to the entire Philippian church and says, "Nobody has character like this guy Timothy". But yet Paul has to write in the first letter, in the 4th chapter, and say, hey, your gift in you, it's inoperative. You are neglecting it. Then he write to them in the 2nd chapter or second book, second letter in the first chapter right up front. He goes, and he acknowledges, "Your faith is genuine, but your gift is dormant. Stir it up". So if we are a believer and we don't understand that we are, because if you look at the word "Grace," it's "Charis". But the Greek word for "Gift" is "Charisma". You put "Charis" and an "M" and an "A" on it. So it's an aspect. It's an outflow of grace. And it's a specific gift of grace that gives us the ability to do what we can't do in our own natural ability.