Kenneth Copeland - Stay in the Process of Faith to Win
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Kenneth Copeland: Hello, everybody. I'm Kenneth Copeland. Welcome to the Believers Voice of Victory broadcast. And have we got a surprise and a broadcast for you today. Would you join me in welcoming Marilyn Hickey to this studio?
Marilyn Hickey: Thank you. Thank you.
Kenneth Copeland: My, my, my, my. How thrilled I am that you're here.
Marilyn Hickey: It's mutual. Mutual.
Kenneth Copeland: Oh, my. She sent me three chapters of her new book, which is her autobiography, It Isn't Over Until You Win. And, man, I read it and the first thing I did, I texted. I said, "Where's the rest of it? I've got to have the rest of this". It is dynamic. And I want to say this before we get into it and then... Boldness is one of the most misunderstood subjects in the New Testament, and it is of vital importance to everybody, but especially those that are called into public ministry. And there's so much of the miraculous depends on boldness. And this is one of the most bold people I have ever had the privilege of knowing. And I've known some pretty bold people. Oral Roberts, very bold man. Kenneth Hagin, a very bold man. But I didn't see either one of them preaching healing in Egypt. I've never seen anybody else preaching healing in Pakistan, huh? Glory to God. Amen. And just go in there and just preach Jesus and it's the healing. Miracles all over the place. And I'm going hush where we can get into this story but I'm so excited about her being here.
Kenneth Copeland: This is the life Marilyn Hickey and It's Not Over Until You Win. And the Lord today gave me this scripture, and this is our golden text. The man that had been a mad man and Jesus instantly delivered him. Thousands of devils. He was possessed by one ruler of the darkness of this world and then the legion of demons operating in and out of him. And he wanted to go with Jesus. Of course, he did. But Jesus said, "Go home to your friends and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee and hath had compassion on thee". And, so, my dear Marilyn, let's begin.
Marilyn Hickey: Yes.
Kenneth Copeland: This journey, it's not over until you win.
Marilyn Hickey: And I love that scripture because that has really been a theme of my life. Because when I wanted to start on television, the people said to me, "You're not television material. You would never make it". So this is a big station in Denver, but the Lord had told me that I was to go on. And, so, I just sat there and I thought, now God, this is your problem, not mine. One man, none of these are born again, said, "Well, I think we ought to try her. I think she'll pay her bill". Now, how many years ago was that? They're not in television, and I'm all over the world. This is what Jesus does. This is what the word does.
Kenneth Copeland: Yeah, that's what it does.
Marilyn Hickey: Yes.
Kenneth Copeland: Amen.
Marilyn Hickey: Yeah.
Kenneth Copeland: Well, just start right here in Texas where you were born and take us through this wonderful journey.
Marilyn Hickey: Well, I was born in Dalhart, Texas, which you know where it is. A little town.
Kenneth Copeland: I was born in Lubbock so we were just next door.
Marilyn Hickey: Well, you were a little larger town than mine. But Dalhart small town. If you had seen my family, we lived in a little three room house that my father built. And so it-
Kenneth Copeland: Let me say this Marilyn before we get started. Marilyn, I was born closer to the end of the Depression. I was born in 1936, she was born in 1930.
Marilyn Hickey: One.
Kenneth Copeland: In 1931, which was the beginning of the Depression, so they went through the heart of the Great Depression. And particularly in that part of the world, what a lot of people don't know, and this has a big to do with all of this, that not only was the Depression on, it didn't rain. It did not rain in that part of the world for nearly 10 years and it created the Great Dust Bowl. I remember it as a young boy, and it was terrible. It was absolutely horrible. People died in those dusts storms. Cattle suffocated in it. So I just wanted to tell you that to give you a perspective about when Marilyn was born and the kind of atmosphere in which she entered into the world.
Marilyn Hickey: Well, I think being born in Texas is wonderful. I am glad I can say I am a Texan. I think you are too.
Kenneth Copeland: Yes, amen.
Marilyn Hickey: We like Texas.
Kenneth Copeland: Yes, ma'am.
Marilyn Hickey: But I look at the process of God. And I want to say this, it seemed like as a little girl, I had a hunger for God. I didn't know why. And so we lived in a little town and so then... And we had moved to Pennsylvania when I was 11. And I said, "Lord, I want to be where you are. Are you in the Catholic church? Are you in the Methodist church? Where are you? I want to be where you are". And he said, "I'm in the word".
Kenneth Copeland: Oh, praise God.
Marilyn Hickey: And Kenneth, that has directed my whole life. And so I began to read the Bible. In those early years, I really had a hunger for the word. But when I was 16, I got the author of my heart, i got born again. So my family didn't quite know what to do with me, we were in a liberal Methodist church, because I wanted to read the Bible, I wanted it to go to church. And my family were kind of, what's so strange about you? And, so, that was my early beginning of God drawing me. And I believe he draws everyone. It says, "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men". I don't know how he's going to do it, i just know how he did it with me. And I began to read the Bible in that time and that began to change my life.
Marilyn Hickey: So in this timing I'm reading the Bible, my family are going to a pretty liberal church. And then my mother got a tumor in her breast and they were very concerned about it. And she watched Oral Roberts on television and I told her, "Don't do it. He's flaky". She did it anyway. And he told them, "Touch the television set and you'll be healed," and the tumor disappeared.
Kenneth Copeland: Oh, glory to God.
Marilyn Hickey: And I want to say this, I think if we can see the process of God, you will never get discouraged because you'll see how God did this, he did that, he brought that person, he allowed certain things. And so that really was a big deal. Now, I didn't think it was right, but what could I say? The tumor disappeared. Then he came to town and had a meeting and she went. And I told her, "Don't go. Don't go there. That's flaky". Isn't this hilarious knowing in my history now with Oral Roberts? So she went and she had a friend, excuse me, who had warts all over her hand, and they're just sitting in the meeting and the warts disappeared.
Kenneth Copeland: Oh, glory to God.
Marilyn Hickey: So see, I began to see the word is miraculous. It works where you live. And that's what I love about it so much. It works every day where you live. So I think-
Kenneth Copeland: Now, this would have been in a '50s?
Marilyn Hickey: This would have been... Yeah, this would have been in the early... No, maybe '48 or 9, someplace in there.
Kenneth Copeland: About the beginning of his ministry.
Marilyn Hickey: Yeah. Yeah. So she would watch him all the time. I didn't, but I loved the Bible. So I'm reading the Bible, and I'm underlining my Bible. It's just really messy. And somebody said, "Don't you realize the Bible is holy"? I said, "the paper isn't". So what happened is the Bible began to read me. And I love this, that he says, "God". Psalm 51 says, "God, thou desire truth in the inward man and in the hidden man, you will make me to know wisdom". So I always tell people, "Hold up your Bible, your phone, if that's where your Bible is, because God wants this to be in here. He wants truth in here".
Marilyn Hickey: Now, here's the wonderful part. Then he takes the truth in here, and it says it, and makes it wisdom up here. So what you are putting in here, God is preparing to be used up here. So little truth, a little wisdom. A lot of truth, a lot of wisdom. Don't you agree?
Kenneth Copeland: Oh, absolutely.
Marilyn Hickey: Yeah. Of course, I'm turned on to God, but I don't really know that much. My mother's watching Oral Roberts and I think he's flaky. She's having people who are friends that are getting real turned onto God and getting spirit filled. So my father had a total mental breakdown, was put in a mental hospital and they said he will never come out. But by this time my mother is in the word and out of her desperation, she has gotten spirit filled. So I remember going with her to the psychologist and he said, "He'll never come out". And she said, "He'll be out of here in a year". And he was.
Kenneth Copeland: Praise God. She got what she said.
Marilyn Hickey: He was. He got born again and water baptized. So see if we can watch the process of God in our lives and not just jump from here to there, it's a process, isn't it? And we're in a continual process of faith. We go from faith to faith. We go from strength to strength, from glory to glory.
Kenneth Copeland: Well, if you don't, you can't just stay in one spot.
Marilyn Hickey: No.
Kenneth Copeland: And, if you don't, you begin to slide.
Marilyn Hickey: Right.
Kenneth Copeland: But, if you just stay in the word, and the continual growth of faith begins to change things.
Marilyn Hickey: Right. It does. And then we got to hear Kenneth Hagin. So he came to a little Foursquare church in our city. We haven't been married very long and-
Kenneth Copeland: Now, where were, you now? What city.
Marilyn Hickey: We were in Denver.
Kenneth Copeland: You were in Denver.
Marilyn Hickey: I was married by that time. And so we got to go in hear him and I couldn't believe it. I thought if the word will work like that for him, it will work that way for me. So that was really more of, what can I say, the process. The beginning of it. And then, of course, I used to listen to you, to Charles Capps and Jerry Savelle, all these various people. And those were all part of the process. But I never thought I would be in the ministry. I'm a school teacher. I teach Spanish and French and Latin and English.
Marilyn Hickey: And so about three years after we were married, my husband comes home and he's discouraged and he's crying. "What are you crying about"? "Well, I feel like we're failing God". "How can we be failing God? We go to church all the time. We teach Sunday school, we sing in the choir. We're not failing God". "Well," he said, "I feel like I am". So he began to fast and pray. And our pastor said to us one night, "God told me today that he's called Wally and Marilyn into the ministry". And that really resonated with my husband. But now in the meantime we've watched Oral Roberts, we've gone to Voice of Healing. We've seen William Branam, we've seen miracle ministries so we're not going to be happy without signs. We're just not going to be there. And absolutely, the word brings manifestation. So when the pastor said that I had an aunt in Dalhart, Texas, she went to a little Assembly of God church. She said, "I'm going to tell my pastor you'll come and you'll hold a revival meeting". We're about as prepared as a mouse. And so the pastor invited us. So Wally would fast and pray in the day time. And I thought, these people haven't had anybody saved for several years. So I would go door to door and take women with me. And so we had people get saved because we went and got them.
Kenneth Copeland: Yeah, amen. Thank God, Marilyn.
Marilyn Hickey: That's been a big thing for me to go and get them. And so we had people-
Kenneth Copeland: So that began really with you way back there way back then?
Marilyn Hickey: Way back than, Yeah.
Kenneth Copeland: Isn't that marvelous?
Marilyn Hickey: Then we became assistant pastors in Amarillo, Texas. ER Foster invited us, and that was a huge church at that time. There was 500 people. They Had two assistant pastors. Oh this is just slap happy for Wally, he's leading worship. And so they said, "We have a young married class". Now, see, I'm pretty young. I'm like 26 or 27. They said, "Would you be interested in teaching it"? I thought, I'm young married, but in Texas when they burp them, I think they get married. They married so young. And so I went and took the class. And then,
Marilyn Hickey: Kenneth, I began to see how the word would work. So the class grew to about a hundred people in a few months. And what I did is I went after people through the electric company because every new family that moved into Amarillo had to sign up and they gave me the names. And so I called every name and I had women who helped me and so our class grew. You say, "How did you get them"? We went after them. And that's always been the process with me with God, go after them. They're not going to sit and come to, you have to go after them.
Marilyn Hickey: So then we were there two and a half years and Wally felt like we should go back into evangelism. So we went back to Denver and we had neighbors that we had led to Christ and they said, "We just lost our pastor," this little church. "Would you help us out until we get somebody"? That's 65 years ago, the longevity of God. If you had told me then, I had a thought you were totally crazy. And so we took that church. And ,again, how do you get people? I mean, who wants to come and here Wally and Marilyn Hickey? What do they know? They haven't been to Bible school. Come on. What do they know? And in your own town, they don't want to come and hear you. So we went after people.
Marilyn Hickey: And what I did, and to this day, I love to do this, I started a home Bible study and I had seven women. And over a cup of coffee and a cookie, we studied the Bible and they began to get saved and spirit filled. And pretty soon I had a hundred, over a hundred Bible studies. No, I had 22, that's an exaggeration. It grew to a hundred. I had 22 home Bible studies and they said, "You don't have anything for men". So we started a couple study at night.
Marilyn Hickey: Now, you say, "Well, that doesn't sound very exciting". But those people said to me, "You ought to go on the radio". "Well, I don't have the money for the radio". "Well, how much does it cost"? "Five dollars a day. Five days, that's $25 a month". I went to my husband and he said, "Well, they like you so well, let them pay for it". Best thing he could have ever said. So I went back to them and they paid for it. And so pretty soon the Bible studies began to grow and I had a group of people who took me and sponsored me. And I'm on all these radio stations and I'm hearing you, I'm hearing Kenneth Hagin. I know that faith works. This is so powerful, this faith works.
Marilyn Hickey: So after I got very involved in the radio, then I began to go out to TBN as a TBN teacher and teach once a week. I didn't go every week, I went every three weeks and than taped them. And then they said to me, "You know, we're getting so much mail for you. Why don't you go on daily"? Isn't God cool? Think about the man who said you'll never make it. And you need to think about the people who say negative things.
Marilyn Hickey: I had a man say to me when I was early in pastoring, he said, "Of all the pastor's wives I know, you're the biggest example of a failure". I said, "Well, why do you think that"? He said, "Because you don't play the piano. You don't play the organ. You don't lead the worship. You don't lead the women's missionary council. All you do have those silly little home Bible studies".
Kenneth Copeland: Oh, my gracious sake.
Marilyn Hickey: Process. And I like to tell people this, I really like too, because everybody thinks you start up here, you don't.
Kenneth Copeland: No, no, no, never.
Marilyn Hickey: You start being faithful and saying what the word says and people telling you, "You don't speak well, why don't you sit down". All of these things, and holding onto what he says in it. So, Kenneth, I got nervous about this because I thought, people said to me, "You're a woman, you shouldn't speak". And yet I felt God had called me. So I said to the Lord, "You know, I'm a woman". And God said, "Yes, I know". I don't think he was shocked. So I said, "I don't understand where I am in the body". You have to remember this is way back.
Kenneth Copeland: Oh, yeah.
Marilyn Hickey: I mean, when women certainly didn't speak. And the Lord said to me, "You are a bridge". And he said, "You won't just speak to men and women, you will speak to nations".
Kenneth Copeland: Praise God, Marilyn. And you've done it.
Marilyn Hickey: So you find out you're a bridge. I think you have seen yourself as a bridge, haven't you?
Kenneth Copeland: Yes.
Marilyn Hickey: You have been a great bridge for the world. I mean, I go in all... I've been in 136 nations. They know you, they love you. They really, really do.
Kenneth Copeland: Glory to God.
Marilyn Hickey: If you say your name, they turn on. They really do. And I've put my hand on my heart, put my hand on the Bible. That is the truth. So I just started that way. And Wally, God bless Wally, he was so behind me. He would always say, "You are really good," because he'd have me preach every other Sunday and I'd feel so inferior. "No, no, you're really good". And I was so shy, i would leave the service early, go out and sit in the car and roll up the windows so I wouldn't have to say hello to anybody.
Marilyn Hickey: Yeah. And, again, it's very important that we stay in the process. So I fed myself the word. I fed myself on different teachings of faith. And then I said to God when I was 45, "What do you want me to do? I don't know what my call is. My husband is a pastor. He knows I don't know what I am. Am I called? Am I just with Wally? What do I do"? And that's when I went... And I only fasted two days. I fasted and prayed and God said, "I've called you to cover the earth with the word".
Kenneth Copeland: Oh, praise God, Marilyn. My, my, my.
Marilyn Hickey: So how do you do that?
Kenneth Copeland: We're out of time already. We'll be back. Amen. We'll be back in just a moment.