Joyce Meyer - What the Bible Says About Mental Health - Part 1
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Ginger Stache: Welcome to, «Enjoying Everyday Life». More attention is being brought to good mental health today. That’s the good news. But billions of people struggle with feelings of anxiety, fear, isolation, and depression without support. So, how do we continue to break down those barriers to getting help? And how do we look at it as Christians? Well, today we once again, welcome Dr. Henry cloud to an important discussion with Joyce, Erin Cluley, and myself as we explore what the Bible says about mental health.
Ginger Stache: Hey friends, it is time to talk it out. So, we invite you to come on in, have a seat on the pink couch with Erin and our guest, Dr. Henry cloud, today. Joyce and I are so glad that you are all here with us. And what we’re going to talk about today, I think will be so important and it’s such a great conversation.
Joyce Meyer: It can change their year.
Ginger Stache: It really can. It can make such a difference. We’re going to talk about how the Bible deals with issues of mental health. Like is there a connection? Is it scriptural to help people with their mental health and to talk about this? And there’s no better person to talk about this with than Dr. Henry cloud. Thank you for being here again.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Now, does that mean that I’m the craziest of the crazy, cuz there’s no better person to talk to?
Ginger Stache: That has yet to be seen. We’ll wait and make that determination at the end.
Joyce Meyer: That means you’ve got a lot of experience.
Dr. Henry Cloud: I’ve got a lot of experience, personally and professionally, yeah.
Erin Cluley: I’m excited we’re talking about this. I wanna read a comment from social media, but sylvia_matungi_6245, she said, «How do I literally get a thinking makeover when I have given bad thoughts the power to shape my life for such a long time? Is there hope to live right and think right? Is there hope»? And so, I love that we’re gonna talk about it in a biblical perspective because I bet so many people feel this exact way that she does, hopeless in something that is so big.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Yeah, most of the people after Genesis 3, have had some experience of… You know, we’re designed for our heart, mind, soul, and strength to work together. And we have a lot of different parts and Jesus said all of those, right? And so, they’ve gotta be working together. And because of experiences and the fall and a bunch of other stuff, our parts don’t always work together, and so we experience problems in our hearts, in our minds, in our souls, and your strength. I mean, how many people have been through a clinical depression where they have no strength?
Joyce Meyer: You know what’s irritating, though? If you have a heart problem, everybody feels sorry for you and thinks you should get all the help you can get. If you need medicine, take medicine. But if it comes to your mind or your mental health, they kind of like, you know, wanna back off.
Ginger Stache: And the church is historically very much that way as well.
Joyce Meyer: And it’s just so, so silly.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Some of the church is, yeah.
Ginger Stache: Not always addressed in the church, or has…
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Ginger Stache: Probably more recently, do you think that’s improving?
Dr. Henry Cloud: Oh, yes.
Joyce Meyer: Yeah, it is.
Dr. Henry Cloud: I mean, drastically, although there are still camps that throw stones at people that read the Bible. That’s my version of it. Because if you read the Bible, it’s so clear. It’s so interesting how you brought up the physical part, the physical heart, but then they talk about their… That sometimes Christians, it’s almost like they turn into Christian scientists or something. That we forget your brain is an organ, like it’s a physical piece of equipment that runs on chemistry and electricity and it’s connected to a lot of different systems that make it fire. But somehow that’s the only part of your physical body that’s off limits to be treated or helped?
Ginger Stache: And why do we somehow separate that? Where if we need help in that area, «We’re not a good Christian,» but if we need help in a physical area, like I have…
Joyce Meyer: I think the devil has just really managed to put a stigma on that. Because you can announce you’re gonna do anything on the mind and viewership goes way up. So, obviously, people do have trouble with their mind, with their thoughts, even trying to be positive and they want help. So, our thinking is dealt with all throughout the Word of God.
Dr. Henry Cloud: And our feelings.
Joyce Meyer: Yeah, our feelings, emotions. And so, when I teach on emotions, when I teach on the mind, always, it’s like, the best book sell, more people come…
Erin Cluley: Because we’re desperate. We’re desperate for something. I remember telling someone, she was a close person to me, and a strong believer. And so, I thought she’s a safe person to talk to, «I’m really struggling with anxiety about this issue». And so, my mind was just, it was going crazy. And she looked at me like I was the problem. And she said, «Well, just pray about it and just believe. Everything’s going to be fine». And so, I thought, «Okay, I better not say anything else, but I’m not okay. But I can’t tell her because apparently I’m not doing this right».
Dr. Henry Cloud: She didn’t know you’ve been praying for a long time, right?
Erin Cluley: Yeah, I’ve been there. I’ve tried that.
Dr. Henry Cloud: It’s so sad. You talk about the Christian way, some Christians look at this and the way some churches do, it’s fascinating to me. If you go, you know, back when I first started, there were these Christian models about, you know, «This is how we deal with this stuff». And they kinda fell into four camps. You know, the first one is, «Well, there must be sin in your life». The second one is, «If you’re not spending enough time in the word, you don’t know the word». The third one is, you know, «Your righteousness be your guard,» like all of that stuff, or «There’s gotta be a demon somewhere».
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry Cloud: And it’s interesting, when I got deep into job, they’re the exact same thing, that what the Christians say are the exact same things all of job’s friends said to him. It’s like you analyze their sermons. It’s like a walk through a Christian bookstore. It is: I’m not kidding! And job said to them, «You are worthless counselors». And then he said, «Oh, I wish your wisdom were silence». Which in the Hebrew means, «Just shut up»! But then…
Ginger Stache: «The translation is…»
Dr. Henry Cloud: And then God, you know, he kinda spanked them and said that job’s the one that told the truth.
Joyce Meyer: Well, you know that I was sexually abused by my dad for probably 15 years. And that messes you up. I mean it…
Dr. Henry Cloud: It absolutely does.
Joyce Meyer: Messes up your thinking, your emotions. My mom knew about it, didn’t do anything about it. And so, fast forward, I marry the first guy that comes along, that’s a five-year disaster because he had more problems than me. Fast forward again, Dave gave me a miracle, I mean, God gave me a miracle in giving me Dave. Well, he’s not only a great man, but he’s very patient. And I had to have somebody that was going to be godly enough to be patient with me because I had a lot of problems, but I didn’t know I had problems.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Right.
Joyce Meyer: I just thought, «What’s wrong with you? What’s wrong with you»? Long story short, I didn’t have the money to go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist. It was just out of the question for me. But God healed me through his word. And one of the first scriptures that became so real to me was that your mind must be renewed through the Word of God if you ever want to experience the good plan that God has for your life, in Romans 12:2. God’s gotta good plan for us, but we have to learn to think in agreement with him and then to speak in agreement with him. And I wrote the book, «Battlefield the mind,» after I got some training myself, and it’s still our bestselling book and it’s 27 years old.
Dr. Henry Cloud: It’s such a felt need…
Erin Cluley: It is.
Dr. Henry Cloud: By everybody. And the thing that makes me sad a lot, you know, you talk about the church thing, is a lot of times there are really well-meaning churches who wanna help people who are struggling with anxiety, depression, all this stuff. And they feel like, «Well, I just better send them to the professionals,» right? Because they feel ill-equipped. But here’s the problem. Number one, obviously, I believe in professionals. I am one.
Joyce Meyer: I do too.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Right? And, there are a lot of times people need a place where they can go down deep and stay down long, because there’s some deep work that has to happen, and can’t happen in some other settings, maybe. But, having said that, the church has been given everything that it needs to make a huge dent in this problem. Because when you look at mental health, if you take the 80/20 rule, you know, if we could do just a few things to solve, that affect 80% of this stuff, you know, there’s a handful of issues that are underneath so much of mental health issues or struggles. Number one, emotional isolation and disconnection. If people do not have deep relationships, that’s how we get our grounding, that’s how God wired us, then we’re going to experience either anxiety, depression, thinking problems, a bunch of other stuff. The Bible tells us over and over and over that we’re supposed to get deeply connected, our hearts knitted together with love, comforting the ones that are in distress.
Joyce Meyer: And, you know, when you’re messed up mentally like I was, that was the one thing I was very frightened of, was any kind of close connection, and especially with family. Like Dave was real close with his family, and a couple of them lived in a four-family flat, and a flat in there became empty, and he wanted us to move there. And I was just like… You know, because I’d had such a bad family experience, that was the last thing I wanted.
Dr. Henry Cloud: That’s right, and it is the family that trains us.
Joyce Meyer: Right…
Dr. Henry Cloud: David said, «God, you taught me to trust you at my mother’s breast». We learn in human relationships a lot about, and we’re fueled, all of that. But the church, if it becomes a safe enough place and we can woo people into, and it’s not just sitting in a pew, on Sunday. It’s getting in, you know, where two or more of you are gathered in these small groups and helping one another, and supporting one another. That’s the first issue. The second issue is in our connections, in our relationships, we’re supposed to experience freedom. We’re not supposed to be controlled by everybody else. That’s what a toddler learns. They learn boundaries. You learn to hear, «No» and say, «No». And the church, of all places, should be a place where people are encouraged to say, «No» to bad things and, «No» to manipulation and all that. You wanna have a recipe for a panic attack, generalized anxiety disorders, eating disorders, but there’s always gonna be a boundary issue somewhere in the picture. The church can help people with that. We got the scriptures to stand with them, and we got the supports for 'em. The third thing, what causes all these problems? We live in a fallen world, and in a fallen world, not only do we have sin, but we’re also sinned against. You know, half the Bible is about doing sin, the other half is about the oppressed and the abused and all that. And people are wounded. Wounds have got to be healed. The Bible’s very clear about healing the brokenhearted and getting what is in the darkness and bringing it to the light. And the church should be a place where people can grieve their losses, where they can uncover wounds that need to be embraced.
Joyce Meyer: And where they can tell their secrets and trust that nobody’s gonna tell 'em.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Exactly, the darkness into the light, and it gets transformed, as Ephesians 5 says. And so, that’s the big issue, as well as we live, you know, in this fallen world, we’re designed to live in a perfect world and be perfect, but here we are. And the way we metabolize our failures and imperfections is the human way, under the law, and we judge ourselves, condemn ourselves, make ourselves bad, and all of that. The church should be a place where we’re accepted in our imperfections and can get 'em healed. That’s the third issue, the church can do this. And the fourth one is, a lot of mental health issues, anxiety, people pleasing, listlessness in life, all of this. We’re born little people in a big person’s world, as a child. Galatians 4 says we’re under guardians and managers, until the date set by the father, where we become an adult. To get humans to feel equal with other people, where they can’t be judged, and somebody else isn’t their God, that’s what a family’s supposed to do. But a lot of people are kept down in their families, and now they’re little kids in an adult’s body, sitting in a meeting, afraid to give their opinion, or having anxiety attacks about it. We should be encouraging people to build your skills, build your gifts, and as Jesus said you’re all brothers. Don’t put anyone up here. Now, you can submit to a boss out of authority, or whatever, but they’re not a better human or a bigger human. We’ve gotta get the people worship out of us, because that creates a lot of depression.
Joyce Meyer: Yeah, it does, and it creates a lot of disappointment in people, which can then turn into discouragement and even depression. We look at some people like, «Oh, you would never hurt me. You’d never do anything wrong». Then when they do, you’re like devastated.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Devastated. Yeah, they fell from a pedestal. So, I’m just for, you know, decades, I’ve been really encouraged to see that so many churches are making safe places for people in groups, and materials, and workbooks, and all of that, because the church can help with this problem.
Ginger Stache: Yeah. Well, and because more people are speaking out.
Dr. Henry Cloud: That’s right.
Ginger Stache: They’re having these conversations, which are so healthy…
Dr. Henry Cloud: People can…
Ginger Stache: And people are sharing.
Joyce Meyer: I think when I started talking about being abused on TV and in my conferences, I don’t think anybody else at that time was doing that. That’s been 47 years ago. And it was just like a huge secret: you didn’t tell anybody.
Dr. Henry Cloud: What were you four years old when you started speaking?
Joyce Meyer: What?
Dr. Henry Cloud: You must have only been four years old when you started speaking.
Joyce Meyer: No, but I was 36 when I started having a home Bible study. I was 50 when I went on tv.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Had to be last week.
Joyce Meyer: Yeah, right.
Ginger Stache: This is why we like you on the show.
Joyce Meyer: I like you. Come back, anytime.
Ginger Stache: Welcome to the podcast. We’re happy to have you.
Joyce Meyer: Nobody was really talking about it. And I would just have… I remember going to Russia, of all places, and I had an altar call for women that had been abused that wanted prayer, and the line was wrapped around the building. And some of them were 80 and 90 years old and had never told one, single person. And I tell you, there’s still a world full of people that have been abused, and they have never told anybody.
Dr. Henry Cloud: That’s right.
Ginger Stache: Well, Dr. Cloud…
Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, God bless you for doing that. It’s hard. I just heard…
Joyce Meyer: God just has given me the courage to just, I just have to tell it like it is, tell the truth.
Ginger Stache: Yeah. And that’s one of the things that you do in your latest book, is that you are a clinical psychologist, so you come at it from that perspective, but you also have personal experience dealing with some of these wounds and difficult issues.
Joyce Meyer: Tell us about the book. Tell them the name.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, the book is called «Why I believe,» and it’s actually a book I wrote, originally, the purpose was to my friends who don’t have faith. You know, we never had talked about it, and with some of them, and I go, «Look, this is stuff we never talked about. This is why I’m one of those 'weirdos.'» right? And when I got into it, I realized, I really had to tell my whole story. And I won’t recant the whole thing, but the short version is, in college, I had some really significant losses, and I got extremely depressed, and… So much so, I had to drop out for a semester. I couldn’t function, and that’s when I turned to God, and he stepped in, and he did a lot of stuff, and all of a sudden, I know that he’s real. He really is real. He does stuff.
Joyce Meyer: He does stuff.
Dr. Henry Cloud: He really does stuff. And then I know God is real, but now I’ve got all these intellectual problems because my professors were saying science is just… So anyway, my story was a deep depression. I mean, if I knew me then as a psychologist, I’d have stuck me in a hospital like on day one. But it was hard for, I mean, it was really hard, and I talk about it in the book. But when I reached out to God, and he started to really do some things, then I had to figure out, «Well, I know he’s real, but what about all this other stuff»? So, I spent a couple years getting those obstacles answered, and there really are answers.
Joyce Meyer: «What about suffering, and what about…»
Dr. Henry Cloud: Yeah, suffering, «And what about the goofy Christians»? I always felt like, you know, «God, I like you, but I don’t like your friends».
Dr. Henry Cloud: «They’re so weird, a lot of 'em». And that was an obstacle, and science, and all this stuff. So, that’s kind of what the book’s about. But the last section is about how the science of psychology proved the Bible to me, because the scriptures address all of this stuff, the causes and the cures. Now, we need, like in any other area, you know, the Bible gives the laws of how finances work. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t some people who, like 2 Peter 1 says, «Add to your faith knowledge,» who’ve gone and gotten advanced knowledge about how these principles work, and we call them cpas, or financial planners. And we go to them, and go down deep, and stay down long, like I said. But that doesn’t mean that the Bible doesn’t address this stuff.
Ginger Stache: It doesn’t mean we don’t have enough faith, because we need help in that area.
Dr. Henry Cloud: So, I’m really excited to see how much, so many Christians are starting to talk about this stuff and getting help.
Joyce Meyer: Well, tell us how much your mind affects everything else in your life, your thoughts.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Your thoughts?
Joyce Meyer: Yeah.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Because it’s really, I mean this is, you know, we could give four or five years of medical school, and graduate school: this is a deep topic. But we’ve got our brain, and we’ve got our mind, and those are connected to the rest of us. And so, basically, how we think, you know, your thinking is kind of like the software. Okay, we’ve got hardware, but the thinking is the programming that gets loaded onto this hardware. So, if you’ve got certain, and it starts a little deeper than the thoughts we’re experiencing, it starts with kind of some deep-seated beliefs of how we don’t even think, but we think, about how the world operates. And that’s our patterning, and how we’re wired, that’s the software. And so, the software, if you click on an icon, what happens to your computer? It starts to go up. So, you can have certain thoughts, and all of a sudden, your cortisol levels shoot up, your body, the hardware responds. Now your stress is up, now your heart’s beating, now you’re having digestive problems, now you might not be able to keep food down, if you’re depressing thoughts, you’re gonna lose energy, your libido’s gonna go away, and it affects your thinking, and you can’t concentrate, that’s what depression is.
Joyce Meyer: But most people don’t think that they can do anything about their thoughts.
Dr. Henry Cloud: They don’t because most people think that their thoughts are true.
Joyce Meyer: Yeah.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Guess what? Just 'cause I think something doesn’t mean it’s real.
Joyce Meyer: Well, the mind is the battlefield, that’s where satan fights you the most.
Dr. Henry Cloud: That’s right. And so, we become truly human, okay? I’ve got a Doberman, she’s wired. She thinks. You know, they have an iq of a small child. If somebody comes to the door, she runs to the door just like she’s wired and starts to bark. That’s what she’s wired to do. I’ve never seen her bark and then sit back and go, «I wonder if that was helpful. Did I bark loud enough? Did I bark», and more than that…
Ginger Stache: «How do I feel about that»?
Dr. Henry Cloud: Yes, but how 'bout this one? «Is that barking gonna get me closer to where I wanna be on Thursday»? That is when we truly become human. The Bible says, «Observe your ways». Just like you said, Joyce, most people just live the wiring of their thoughts. They don’t get above them like the Bible tells us to do, «God, examine».
Joyce Meyer: I tell people, when you’re in a bad mood, just sit down and think about what you’ve been thinking about.
Erin Cluley: I love that phrase.
Dr. Henry Cloud: That is neuroscience. Think about your thinking.
Joyce Meyer: Ooh, I’m a neuroscientist.
Dr. Henry Cloud: You are a neuroscientist. Well, there’s a lot of neuroscience in your books. Think about your thinking so you get above your thoughts, «Is that true? Is that what God says? Is that what I know to be true in life? Is this irrational»? And all of that. And so, we start to examine it. And it’s so funny, you know, you see all this new-fangled stuff: «Cognitive behavioral therapy, cbt, evidence-based,» of course, it is: it works. It does things. It’s exactly what the Bible’s been telling us to do forever, to think about your thinking.