Joyce Meyer - How to Set Boundaries in Your Life - Part 1
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Ginger Stache: Hello and welcome to, «Enjoying Everyday Life». Could you use some help setting boundaries in your life? Well, we’ve got the doctor in the house, today. Dr. Henry cloud joins Joyce, Erin Cluley and me to discuss the importance of healthy boundaries and to offer practical help in making them work for you. So, grab a notebook and a Bible and get ready for a great discussion.
Ginger Stache: So, Dr. Cloud wrote the book, «Boundaries,» with Dr. John Townsend. He’s a psychologist and author, a leadership consultant, written 45 books, 20 million books sold. You have a new book out called, «Why I believe».
Dr. Henry cloud: Yeah.
Joyce Meyer: Dr. Cloud is a psychologist if you don’t know him, so he’s going to psychoanalyze me here on the show.
Ginger Stache: Yeah, yeah. So, we’re just very happy to have you, especially here talking to us about kind of your keystone thing, which is boundaries and how important they are in all of our lives. So, can we set up the need for boundaries? I have so many things going through my head of the need for boundaries. But what would you describe as the main reason that boundaries are so vital?
Dr. Henry cloud: Oh, that’s like saying you want water, air, or food, you know? It’s hard to boil down to one. But basically, a boundary is a property line. And so, it defines where you are and where you end and someone else begins. And the simplest illustration of a boundary is the first one we know in life, and that’s your skin. So, your skin boundary is kind of the fence, right? And what does it do? It keeps the bad stuff out. You know, if you pour infected something on you, it’s gonna bounce off unless you don’t have a boundary there, and you’ve gotta cut and then it gets in. And it keeps the good stuff in. You know, you don’t want your liver falling out.
Ginger Stache: Nobody wants that.
Erin Cluley: That’s so embarrassing.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s what a boundary is. It’s you and your life. What are you going to allow into your life? I mean, we open our mouth to let good things in, sometimes too much. But we can close it, you know, to not let bad stuff in. And you can open it to let the bad stuff out. So, the Bible and all of psychology tells us that it’s very important to have clear boundaries, so we know what we’re letting into our life. There’s bad stuff in us we’ve got to get out through confession and grief and all that. But we need to be in control of that. And boundaries, you said the most important reason, one of them is, just like Galatians 5 says, it is for freedom that Christ has set you free. God wanted human freedom. So, you should be free to say «No» to me if I want to do something that you don’t wanna do or is not good for you. And you should be free to say, «Yes». But in human relationships, we start to control each other. You know, step over the fence. What the Bible call that? It’s a trespass, so.
Joyce Meyer: Before…The book «Boundaries,» I was in a situation where I was being controlled by the person that I worked for. And I didn’t really realize that’s what it was for about four years. And then when I realized it, I got really mad at that person. And God spoke to me, and he said, «Don’t be mad at him, you let him do it». And so, that was the first inclination I had about boundaries. Is, you know, people will take advantage of you if you don’t have a boundary and let them know that they can’t.
Dr. Henry cloud: And you said something so important because boundaries are ultimately about self-control.
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry cloud: The Fruit of the Spirit is self-control. And it’s interesting because you started out, you said that «That person was controlling me». Well, that was your experience until you realized, «Wait a minute, I’m in control. I could say 'no' to this. I could walk. I could call the police. There’s a lot of things I could do». Now, certainly a lot of people are so, you know, there’s horrible situations where their freedom’s been taken away and we need to get help. But most of the time, we are not executing the freedom that God has wired. And, you know, people feel guilty if they do it. There’s a lot of fears and stuff we have to work through.
Joyce Meyer: Well, for a lot of people, I think it’s very hard to say, «No».
Dr. Henry cloud: It is hard to say, «No».
Joyce Meyer: I went through that for a period of time, even in ministry. It was like, people would call and say, «Well, God really spoke to our heart that you’re supposed to do our conference». Well, you start throwing the God word around.
Dr. Henry cloud: Oh, gosh.
Ginger Stache: That’s just spiritual manipulation.
Joyce Meyer: «Yeah, maybe I better do it». And then, I thought, «Well, God may have told you, but he didn’t told me. So, until he does, I’m not coming».
Dr. Henry cloud: «Tell him to call me».
Joyce Meyer: I found out that I had to say, «No,» or I was not gonna survive.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s right. You know, it’s so interesting. I’ll give you a great verse on this. In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul is talking about giving. And certainly, it’s in the context of money, but it applies to all of giving. And it’s so powerful. He says in that one little verse, «Give as you have purposed in your heart, as you’ve chosen to». And then he gives two warnings, «Not begrudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver». Begrudgingly is when somebody pressures you from the outside and you give in. You’re not giving… You give in, but then you are holding a grudge against it. That’s the external pressure, which everybody gets. But there’s internal pressure under compulsion. That’s where, «Well, I should say, 'yes, ' because I’m not being a good Christian if I say, 'no'». So, we have internal restrictions on our freedom, and we have external forces. And that’s where self-control is needed to be developed.
Joyce Meyer: When you let people do that to you, what my experience has been, is that I start to resent 'em.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s right. That’s the begrudging. That’s right.
Joyce Meyer: I resent them because they’re so-called «Making me do things I don’t wanna do».
Dr. Henry cloud: «They made me do it».
Joyce Meyer: But they’re really not making me.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s right.
Joyce Meyer: I’m just too much of a coward to say, «No».
Ginger Stache: Well, it puts so much stress in our lives.
Joyce Meyer: Yeah.
Ginger Stache: Because we either have the fears that you were talking about or false guilt, all the reasons that we think we can’t say, «No». And then the things that we allow people to do that hurt us, that if we can set a boundary, will stop that. And there’s just so much stress involved in people’s lives that some healthy, godly boundaries can help with.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s right. And the Bible is just replete with so many commandments for us to have these boundaries. And yet, sometimes Christians have learned half the Bible. They learn the loving side. You’re supposed to be patient and forbearing and forgiving and all this. But they don’t learn the and you’re to speak the truth. And you’re to confront somebody. And you’re not to enable that. And those go together. And sometimes we just get over-Christian…
Joyce Meyer: Well, I’d like to ask you a question to have you answer because I know that many people watching may be realizing for the first time through this, «Somebody is controlling me». If you’ve been in a controlling relationship for a period of time and you decide, «I’m gonna start setting boundaries,» there is no possibility that the other person is not gonna get angry.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s right.
Joyce Meyer: So, how does somebody get out of that bad cycle into a healthy one?
Dr. Henry cloud: Well, the first thing, make sure you’re safe. Some people have been controlled by people who really are master manipulators. And they’re actually, what the Bible refers to as evil. They have destruction in their hearts. I mean, they don’t mind hurting you. In fact, they might even like it. And it also, you know, Proverbs tells us there’s another category of people call the fools, mockers. And they don’t like to be confronted. And so, it says, «Don’t confront a mocker lest you’ll incur insults upon yourself». And so, the first thing is make sure you’re safe. Some people, you know, we have domestic violence situations. Last thing you wanna do is go set a boundary in a dangerous situation. What the boundary you need to set is call a shelter, or call your pastor, or go get somewhere safe. Now, that’s the extreme situations. It goes from there to, first of all, it’s really important for you to get in touch before God. You know, the Bible says, «We gotta get the log out of our own eye first». And I would like for them, just sit down, and sit down with somebody you trust and just take an audit of what is this costing you. Because we need to have good motivation to go through some of these conflicts that might, you know, entail. And you start looking at it and you start realizing the pain you’re suffering and all of that. But there’s two other big things. One is the realization that it’s not helping. The way you’ve been people pleasing is not turning this person into, you know, prince charming or something. And so, to continue to do the same thing expecting different results is crazy. So, let’s wave the white flag on, «I’ve been trying to love them out of this or give to them,» and you know, their entitlement and all that, that’s not working. And then also, what you’re missing. And then the big one is there are so many situations where when you finally do this, there are people, it turns them around. They’ve never had anybody say, «No,» to them. And they begin to experience the consequences of what they’re doing. And consequences for some people are only, the only thing that makes them turn around. And so, all of that, I would say, if you’re in a tough situation, don’t do it alone. Go talk to somebody first. If it’s serious, go talk to a good counselor. Go to a boundaries group. Go to a codependency group. Get support because boundaries are never set from a vacuum. We have to be standing on firm ground and have the support that we need to be able to do this. And you’re probably gonna need some coaching. So, don’t do it alone.
Ginger Stache: Yeah, that’s a great point because if we are at a point of woundedness, we might set some boundaries that are not healthy. We need to make sure that we are doing it with help to do it in a healthy way.
Dr. Henry cloud: Right.
Ginger Stache: And a safe way. I think that’s so important.
Dr. Henry cloud: And remember, remember, remember, boundaries are not… I don’t set boundaries on you. I set boundaries on myself. So, I can say, you know, if you’re on heroin or something…
Joyce Meyer: We’ve been talking to her about that.
Erin Cluley: Yes, it’s good you’re here.
Dr. Henry cloud: In fact, this is an intervention: we didn’t tell you.
Erin Cluley: Wow.
Dr. Henry cloud: We’ve gathered here today.
Erin Cluley: Thank you for coming.
Ginger Stache: No, thank you.
Dr. Henry cloud: You know, or you’re with an alcoholic, or whatever it is, or a rage-a-holic or whatever, say, «You know what? I’ve talked to you about this. I’ve talked to you about your drinking. And, you know, it hasn’t helped. So, I’m not gonna really do that anymore. And I can’t stop you. Only you can do that. But what I can do is I can stop myself from being exposed to it. And so, you know, the families decided, if you want to continue to drink, you can. We want you to stop. We want you to get some help and get treatment. But if you choose not to, then we’re going to choose to not be around you until you do. So, it’s really your choice». But see, I can set boundaries on my exposure to bad things. I can’t control another person. Ultimately, you can call the cops and the law steps in. But boundaries are about what I allow myself to be engaged with and what I don’t.
Erin Cluley: That feels like a hard thing to do, especially as people in the church. I’ll speak for myself. It feels like I am not acting, like you said earlier, out of God’s love, when I’m telling somebody, «I cannot help you anymore with your situation». It feels like that goes against what I’m taught to love people and be there for them and be generous with my time. So, what does that look like? How do you know when you’ve gone too far with overextending yourself or not setting a healthy boundary?
Dr. Henry cloud: Well, the very first test is, «What is my giving producing»? «What’s my giving in the service of»?
Joyce Meyer: «Do you have any joy in what you’re doing? Or is it making you miserable»?
Erin Cluley: Sure. And do I feel obligated?
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s part of it. «And is it helping them»? If you’re balance of mind, you know, we need to give to people in need and all that. But if somebody is irresponsible and they’re not willing to get a job or they’re not willing to deal with their issues, «I will give to you, but what’s it in the service of? If it’s only in the service of you continuing to stay stuck or addicted or irresponsible or not doing what you need to do, then my investment is getting a return». Investments get returns. «What I’m getting for the return is more addiction».
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Erin Cluley: That’s good.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s kind of the first realization we have to ask, «What’s it in the service of»? Secondly, though, sometimes they’re asking you for good things.
Erin Cluley: Yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: Right? The Bible is very clear. And I don’t know if y’all notice this. We’re not God.
Erin Cluley: Yeah.
Joyce Meyer: Oh…
Dr. Henry cloud: It’s a bummer.
Ginger Stache: It’s so true. And I’m not very good at realizing that sometimes. I think I need to control things.
Erin Cluley: But I need to fix them. That’s good, Dr. Cloud.
Dr. Henry cloud: Nor are we the entire body of Christ? Ladies: yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: And it says very specifically in a number of ways and in a number of places, «You’re his workmanship created in Christ Jesus,» to do some good things, to give to some things, give your time, give your energy and all of that, «For good works that have been laid down before you so that you might walk in them». But every need out there is not your good work.
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry cloud: That belongs to God and somebody else.
Erin Cluley: Yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: Romans 12 says, «Do not think more highly of yourself than you are».
Joyce Meyer: Right, yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: There are certain things we’re called to. You have certain gifts. You don’t have other gifts.
Erin Cluley: Yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: And so, we gotta be clear before God, back to 1 Corinthians… 2 Corinthians 9? 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians…
Ginger Stache: A Corinthians 9.
Dr. Henry cloud: One of those books.
Joyce Meyer: It’ll be good for 'em to look it up.
Dr. Henry cloud: «What you’ve purposed in your heart».
Erin Cluley: Yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: Now, here’s a good thing for people to do. Get a piece of paper. You’re talking about love here, right? It’s not loving if I don’t give to you. Draw a line that’s a continuous line, in every relationship.
Erin Cluley: Okay. That line, it’s unbroken and it goes infinitely in both directions. Call that line love. My love for you never wavers. Ever. There’s another line underneath it that’s a dotted line or dashes with spaces. Call that what I will do for you. Sometimes, «Yeah, I’ll do that, but no, I won’t do that. I still love you».
Joyce Meyer: Yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: «My love has never disappeared, but what I’ll agree to do and not do,» that’s always a dotted line. Sometimes it’s helpful. «Sometimes I need to do something else. Sometimes I don’t want to».
Erin Cluley: Yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: And so, we have to make sure we’ll never equate, «Will I do this or that» with «Do I love you or not»? Otherwise, God wouldn’t be loving. He says, «No,» to us all the time.
Ginger Stache: That’s such a great visual.
Erin Cluley: It is.
Dr. Henry cloud: Yeah. I mean, do it with each relationship. You know, with your kids. «Yeah, I’ll bring the food in, but you’re going to make your sandwich».
Joyce Meyer: «You can come over, but you’re cleaning up the mess».
Erin Cluley: I like it. That’s good.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s right.
Erin Cluley: Dr. Cloud was counseling me earlier about my dog. I also have boundary issues with Axel.
Ginger Stache: This sounds really deep.
Erin Cluley: It was actually really helpful because he told me I’m the problem, which is not a surprise. But even things like that in my life, I didn’t realize how important boundaries are, and that it is me, in that situation, that needs to shift. It’s not, I can’t put that upon the dog. That’s silly. That’s little, but still it was really important for me.
Dr. Henry cloud: I see, I’m really into dog training, and I go on walks. I see people, you know, their dogs are taking them for a walk. The dog is in control of them. And why? Because they’re trying to control the dog. You want your dog to have self-control. And they learn that through boundaries, that «If I do this, my life is good. If I do that, I go to dog purgatory. And I don’t want to live there». They are in control.
Joyce Meyer: I have a dog problem. I’ve tried about eight times, and I just, I cannot make them mind because I’m like, «Oh, you’re so cute».
Erin Cluley: «You need a boundary,» Dr. Cloud said.
Joyce Meyer: «Yes, you can get in my bed».
Dr. Henry cloud: Oh, yeah.
Joyce Meyer: You know something I think it’s important for us to say here. I think depending on the situation, but if you’ve been letting somebody control you for a long time and you decide you have to break that pattern, there is a possibility that they may no longer wanna be in your life.
Dr. Henry cloud: Absolutely.
Joyce Meyer: So, I think that’s important for people. You have to be at that reality. I know, just a quick example, I had a group of friends at a church that I went to, and we were just like, you know. But this one girl, if you didn’t do everything she wanted to do, she got upset. So, I fell into that pattern of just keeping her happy because I wanted to be part of this group.
Dr. Henry cloud: Yeah, easy to do.
Joyce Meyer: Well, when God called me to preach, those were the first people that no longer wanted anything to do with me. Because they told me that I shouldn’t be doing that and because I didn’t listen to them and do what they wanted me to do, I preferred to do what God wanted me to do. Then, I mean, we lost friends. We got asked to leave our church. It was a real eye-opener that, you know, you let people control you and when you get tired of it, you have to realize that confronting them may turn them around and hopefully it will. But sometimes you have to be willing to say, «I can live without that».
Dr. Henry cloud: Joyce, you just hit something that’s so important because, you know, humans, we’re wired for relationship, and we need people and we need these relationships. God wanted us…
Joyce Meyer: And we want people to like us.
Dr. Henry cloud: And he meant for us to live in close community. And so, the fear of rejection and abandonment is what drives so many people. And that’s why I said, «Don’t do this in a vacuum». Okay? What you gotta do first is, you had your own tribe that was with you, in where you were going, right? First, you knew some people were on your team. Then you can go from there to saying what you gotta say. And like the rich young ruler, you know, when Jesus set the boundary, he walked away. The guy left him.
Ginger Stache: Yeah. He chose not to.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s right. But he had somebody to go home to. He had his father. And he had, as he said, when they said, you know, «Your mother, brother, sisters,» he goes, «Who are those»? «But who’s my family»? «Those who do the will of God». So, you gotta be grounded with supportive people before you ever think about boundaries.
Ginger Stache: You know, you also mentioned what scripture says, you know, that the truth will set you free, that freedom is such a big part of this. You know, I’ve had a relationship that I really cared about, you know, that was important to me. And, at some point, I just had to draw a boundary and was hoping that things would work out and it did not go well. And lost that relationship. And I’ll tell you, like you said, it hurt. I mean, I mourned that relationship being gone. But in time, and it did take time, I just felt a weight lifted. While I missed that relationship, there was a weight lifted of some of the pressure of the unhealthy aspects that were a part of that relationship. And in time, you begin to realize that some of the pain is the only way to heal from the things that just are not right.
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s right. And Jesus said, you know, clearly he said, «I’m gonna divide people».
Ginger Stache: Yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: He said, «There will be households that split up because of me».
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry cloud: And righteousness does that. When somebody says, you know, «We’re gonna live in a sober house. You’re welcome to live here, but anybody’s that not, won’t be living here». Those are, you know, Paul says, «If somebody’s not willing to work, don’t let 'em eat». These can bug people.
Joyce Meyer: To say the least.
Ginger Stache: That’s one way to put it, yeah.
Joyce Meyer: I always say if people wanna hear, «Yes,» they’re never happy if they hear, «No».
Dr. Henry cloud: That’s right. John Townsend and I wrote a book called, «Safe people». And there’s a whole list of things about, you know, the kind of safe people we need in our lives. And one of the questions you always have to ask and talk about in relationships, «Do you love my 'no' as much as you love my 'yes'»?
Joyce Meyer: Yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: Because ultimately, that’s the value of them seeing you as a separate person who’s free. You’re not a slave.
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry cloud: Love can only exist in freedom. And if I’m manipulating somebody into loving me, I might get the cookie I’m trying to get, but I’m not getting love.
Ginger Stache: Yeah.
Dr. Henry cloud: And ultimately, I’m not even gonna be fulfilled by that.
Erin Cluley: Yeah.