Joyce Meyer - Beyond Labels - Part 1

Ginger Stache: Hey everyone, welcome to, "Enjoying Everyday Life". I have an important question for you. And how you answer it will determine how much joy and peace, you have in life. Where does your value come from? Is it in what you do for a living, or how successful you are? Or do you find your worth in who you are in Christ? Today, a vital and life-giving discussion from Joyce's Talk It Out podcast with our special guest, music artist, Riley Clemmons. I hope you are encouraged by our conversation and that it challenges you to reevaluate how you see yourself.

Ginger Stache: Today, we're talking about what are you thinking about yourself? And knowing who God says we are, it almost sounds pat because we say it so much. But if we don't really dig into it and let it sink into our spirit on a regular basis and not just at one point, because it's not like, "Oh, I get it and I'm done now". You know, it's a walk. So, we're gonna be talking so much about that today. So, Riley, I really wanna know because as an artist, as a musician, I mean, you've had some wonderful accolades. Was it 2021? You were nominated as female artist of the year by K-love fans. And, you know, you've had, in fact, your song "Fighting for me" is really important to all of us because we've used it as one of our ProjectGRL theme songs.

Riley Clemmons: I got to witness that at the last women's conference, and my mom and I were just losing it. We hardly held it together watching that video. It was so special.

Ginger Stache: Well, it just is wonderful for us to be able to, you know, partner in that because the message of that song was so great. And it really goes along with Joyce's heart and the heart of everything we do to help women and girls around the world.

Riley Clemmons: Amazing.

Ginger Stache: But being able to, okay, here you are, you're in front of all of these people, and you're doing well in your music career. You're a beautiful young woman.

Riley Clemmons: Thank you.

Ginger Stache: How do you keep your feet on the ground and remember who you are and not who that audience is telling you, you are, or even the audience that doesn't maybe love a new song that comes out? How do you deal with all that?

Riley Clemmons: Well, Ginger, that is a great question. The answer to that, honestly, I'm learning every day. It's different every day. I think that, I'm 24 now and I started in the industry when I was really young, when I was really young. And my brain, I mean, I think all of us would agree that at any age, we're always learning and growing, but the past few years have been full of so much learning, just constantly trying to seek wisdom, trying to grow, trying to be better than I was yesterday, trying to be more like Jesus. And I have done it so imperfectly and learned so much, but it's been a constant challenge. It's a recommitment every single day to not fall into the temptation to believe what the world might expect of me or say of me. And it's hard. I was candidly, it was moments like last week, I made the mistake of picking up my phone and reading through comments and I was playing a Bible trivia game online and missed one and read the comment, read the immediate comment of, "Oh, how disappointing, how could she not know that? And she says she's a Christian," and it can get to you sometimes. So, I'm a long-winded kinda gal, so you're going to have to cut me off. But there's no process other than wake up and pray hard that God gives me the grace and the wisdom to just tackle whatever's in front of me.

Ginger Stache: Was it tempting for that value to come through success...

Riley Clemmons: Absolutely.

Ginger Stache: Rather than the basis of what God did for us?

Riley Clemmons: Of course. That's the whole struggle, right? I, by my very nature, am a very ambitious type a. I like the idea of...

Ginger Stache: Welcome!

Riley Clemmons: Hi guys!

Joyce Meyer: Welcome!

Riley Clemmons: So happy to be here.

Erin Cluley: You're in good company.

Riley Clemmons: I love organization. I love a plan. I love goal setting and getting to those goals. And the same thing that drives me to wanna work hard and to wanna perform well is the very thing that bullies me, sometimes.

Ginger Stache: Yeah. That's a good way to put it.

Riley Clemmons: Yeah.

Erin Cluley: It's what it feels like.

Riley Clemmons: It does, right? And looking and whether it's the constant comparison cycle of looking at your peers and wondering, well, "How are they charting on the music charts this week"? Or "How is their song doing"? Or "How did my show go"? And that's my struggle. I've always struggled with comparison. That is something that I have had to work on, and recommit to, and grow from, and all of that good stuff. And there was actually a big turning point moment for me, the top of 2022, I was absolutely miserable. I was so beat down bad because I felt like my own ambitions kept on letting me down. I was trying so hard to prove to the music industry, to myself, that I was good enough, and I was a winner, and that I was worthy of the accolades. And it absolutely exhausted me because nothing was ever good enough. And it made me fall out of love with music. I had no desire to write anymore. And I felt such a strong nudge from the Lord saying, "Riley, you have to stop before you burn out".

Ginger Stache: Wow, yeah.

Riley Clemmons: And so, I called my team early in 2022 and told them all I had to take some time to get away and refocus.

Ginger Stache: That had to be hard to make that decision.

Riley Clemmons: It was scary. You know, that you're tempted to believe that all this that I've built, I'm losing momentum. But it was one of the best decisions I've ever made and led to a season of inspiration and creativity that created this past album and created this new season of music and ministry. And it's been really, I've learned so much from it.

Erin Cluley: It's interesting when God asks you to give something up like that, like in all of our lives, it does show you where you might have struggles and insecurity. Because when it's that hard to give it up, you realize, "Well, I was too connected to that thing. I found too much of my identity in that thing".

Riley Clemmons: Yes, yes.

Erin Cluley: I don't wanna give it to you because that's scary.

Riley Clemmons: Right. And I think so much of what I've learned too is the culture of the world that we live in, that I've grown up in, social media culture. The first social media app was downloadable when I was 12 years old. Nobody knew what it was.

Ginger Stache: I know what you mean.

Riley Clemmons: Yeah.

Erin Cluley: You were like 14.

Ginger Stache: Yeah, actually I did not have that same experience. But go ahead, I love hearing.

Riley Clemmons: None of them are gonna believe you, girl. None of them are gonna believe you.

Ginger Stache: No, but this is so important for so many people who that has been the guideline, the bar that I need to reach, what I see on social media.

Riley Clemmons: It's such a lie when you're constantly, culture, secular culture particularly, there's that temptation to find identity in success, ambition, accolades, likes on a post, all sorts of things.

Joyce Meyer: I think there's very few people that don't go through that initially. If I look back at the beginning of my ministry, 'cause I laugh, you're 24, and oh, I was such a mess when I was 24, it was unbelievable. And of course, God didn't call me into the ministry till I was 32. But my motives were mixed. I didn't know it then, but part of it from being abused and being insecure from that, I wanted to prove that I had worth and value. But I didn't even really know that's what I was doing. I think a lot of times we're not even aware of what we're doing. And so, our whole life is a learning lesson. And you, at least for me, it's been the older I get, the more I'm able to relax and know what's really important. And even like getting ready to come here today, I started out and I said, "Lord, help me do this today". And then I said, "Well, never mind. You don't need to help me. Just do it through me". And so, it really, I mean, without God, we're nothing. And the more you learn that, the more peace you can be in. And God really doesn't want us to be like anybody else. He doesn't want us to compare ourselves with anybody else. But initially, I think everybody is going to do that. I think there's some things that you can only learn by making the mistakes and finding out what makes you unhappy. And you, you know, you caught yourself before you got burnout. I got burned out three times.

Riley Clemmons: Really?

Joyce Meyer: Very seriously.

Riley Clemmons: What was that like for you?

Joyce Meyer: Well, I got sick. I got sick. I remember, well, one time, I did 13 weekends in a row on the road, and I drove by my office, and I stuck my tongue out at it.

Erin Cluley: That's a good sign.

Joyce Meyer: And I said, "I don't even wanna hear the name Joyce Meyer".

Riley Clemmons: "Don't think about it".

Joyce Meyer: And I wanted, like, if I have too much time being all spiritual, then I start wanting to be domestic.

Erin Cluley: Interesting.

Joyce Meyer: And one time, I decided I was gonna cook and I went out and bought about $500 worth of spices. And all these recipes book and I made a tuna casserole that was so dry nobody could swallow it.

Riley Clemmons: That's honest.

Joyce Meyer: So, we decided that wasn't my calling. I was a good cook when my kids were little, but I went so many years without cooking. And you know, I just, it's so interesting when you get to my age to listen to people at your age or, you know, any of you girls and just think, "Yep, I remember that. I remember that. I remember that". But the thing is, is you, I think we learn more by our mistakes than we do by our successes.

Riley Clemmons: That's well said. And you know, humility is the hardest virtue to come by and the hardest one to keep. And one experience for me that has been interesting is like being on television, I get recognized in public, sometimes, a lot. And boy, in the beginning that would just make me feel so good. And so, then God would cut it off and nobody would recognize me for a long time. And then gradually, I mean, it took a few years, but I got to the point where that doesn't mean anything to me now. I mean, I'm happy that I'm blessing the people, but it doesn't make me feel important because they...But you have to work through those things. And so, people watching today, they can learn something different from every one of us because we're all in leadership, but all in different places in our life. And I'm probably more relaxed than any of you because I've been through it all.

Erin Cluley: Riley, let me tell you this secret.

Riley Clemmons: That's good.

Erin Cluley: In these shows, especially topics like this, Joyce is really good at saying things mostly to me, "Erin, don't do that anymore. Just stop that. Let it go".

Riley Clemmons: I respect that.

Erin Cluley: "Calm down". So, just let her tell you too, we don't need to worry about it. "It's going to all be okay".

Riley Clemmons: Hey, that's biblical.

Erin Cluley: "Calm down, Erin".

Riley Clemmons: That's biblical, right there.

Erin Cluley: It is.

Riley Clemmons: You can't add a day to your life by worrying.

Erin Cluley: Yep.

Joyce Meyer: It's all gonna get okay. You'll get there. Just always remember humility. Pride was the devil's sin. And that's the one thing probably above everything else that he will attack us with.

Ginger Stache: Over and over and over.

Joyce Meyer: Over and over again.

Ginger Stache: When you think you're doing okay.

Joyce Meyer: Let's talk for a minute аbout: what are some of the ways that pride manifests because it's very good at hiding? And the proud person doesn't think they're proud because they're too proud to admit they're proud.

Ginger Stache: That's a lot of pride.

Riley Clemmons: Yeah, that's a lot of pride going around.

Joyce Meyer: What do you think, Ginger? What are some of the ways that pride manifests?

Ginger Stache: There are so many things, like you said, that you don't realize, it's pride. Insecurity, people think it's because they are not secure enough in who they are. But the reason for that is pride because they want to be lifted up. And so, it seems like opposites, but they really go together. I think impatience so often is a lot about pride.

Joyce Meyer: I wish you wouldn't have said that one.

Erin Cluley: The Lord is kicking at Joyce, over here.

Ginger Stache: I say it 'cause I live it, too. And God's constantly talking to me about it. It's like, "You're not more important than that person". You know, "You don't have to be impatient with them or with me". You know, wow, talk about pride. Some of those issues with God are about our pride. It's because we think we know better what we should have. The list goes on, and on, and on.

Joyce Meyer: Not being able to take correction.

Ginger Stache: Oh, yeah.

Erin Cluley: That's a tough one.

Joyce Meyer: You know, it's always like, I mean, my husband just loves to tell me what to do.

Riley Clemmons: Do you love that?

Joyce Meyer: Oh, no. I've been married 57 years and because I'm independent, I mean, he tells me little stuff like how to get out of the bathtub and, you know, be careful about this and that. And I started out thinking, "Well, do you think I'm stupid"? You know, and I realize now, that he really just, a man wants to take care of a woman that's in their nature. They wanna make sure you don't get hurt. So, he's really telling me these things for my benefit. But for a long time, I took it like he thought I didn't know what I was doing. And that's pride.

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: "Don't try to tell me anything. I know what I'm doing". And it's just interesting how many different ways pride always wants to talk instead of listen.

Riley Clemmons: That's so good. That's so good.

Joyce Meyer: Matter of fact, most of the time, pride is thinking about the answer while you're still talking.

Riley Clemmons: I hear you. I hear you.

Joyce Meyer: And what about Erin, can you think of any other way pride manifests?

Erin Cluley: Even this morning, with what you're saying, Joyce, somebody, not even corrected, they just had an opinion about something that I did some work on. And they said, "I think we could do this better". And my first go-to was, "So I'm not smart enough".

Riley Clemmons: Yeah, wow.

Erin Cluley: Like, "I'm not good enough to do that. You don't think I can do my job". And I recognize right away that's insecurity in me. That's my pride. Their idea was really good. And we should do what they suggested, but.

Riley Clemmons: Can I ask you a question?

Erin Cluley: Maybe I'll answer.

Riley Clemmons: Are you a perfectionist?

Erin Cluley: In some ways, yes. In things like that. Like, I don't feel the need to make everything exactly right. But I do feel a need to, for people to know that I can do my job.

Riley Clemmons: Yeah.

Erin Cluley: Or that I can be a really good mom.

Riley Clemmons: That's good.

Erin Cluley: So, it's more like an overall perfection.

Riley Clemmons: I get that. I feel like that's something I've struggled as a perfectionist. I struggle big time with OCD. That's been a big thing for me over the years is figuring out how that works and how to pray through that and be faithful through it. And a big thing that I've noticed is because I'm so perfectionist-minded, I have had a hard time when people tell me, "I wouldn't do it like that".

Joyce Meyer: Yeah.

Riley Clemmons: Or, "I don't think that's correct". Or "Hey, this isn't", that would really bug me. That would really get under my skin to the point of where I would go to this place of "How can I be so wrong"? And then it would go to that self-loathing cycle that's so unhealthy. So, I just, I relate it to that.

Ginger Stache: "How did I miss that"? Goes into, "What else am I missing"?

Riley Clemmons: Yes!

Ginger Stache: And then, "I can't do it".

Joyce Meyer: One of my husband's favorite things to say to me is, "Are you sure"? When I say something, "Are you sure"? And I'm like, "Dave, I'm always sure".

Ginger Stache: He doesn't say "Calm down" then does he? Because that is when it's over.

Erin Cluley: That's the one that pushes you over the edge, huh?

Ginger Stache: "Are you sure"? "Just calm down".

Joyce Meyer: "Are you sure"? Do not ask me if I'm sure. I am sure.

Riley Clemmons: That's so good. Another one for me now that we're talking about it is, I mean, envy is a big area. We talked about comparison. Envy is a big spot where I noticed that pride pops out. You know, where you feel that sense. And that's what I've learned, God has taught me so intentionally in this season, when my brain goes to the spirit of comparison, when I start to compare myself, you know, I really have to look in the mirror and go, "Riley, why? Why do you think that? Where is the pride coming from that you think you deserve this more than somebody else? Or you think that you have to have the same thing"? This is such a good conversation.

Ginger Stache: Yeah, it is. "Why isn't there enough success to go around for everybody"?

Riley Clemmons: Right.

Ginger Stache: Because we do kind of feel that way. "They got it, therefore I didn't".

Joyce Meyer: And what is a success really in God's eyes?

Ginger Stache: Right, yes.

Joyce Meyer: That's the key.

Ginger Stache: And looking at those things so differently really helps.

Joyce Meyer: What we think is success is not what God thinks is success. You know, a real success is somebody who has a really close relationship with God, spends time with him, loves people, wants to help people. You know, there's nothing more important to God than helping people. He's not into our popularity, or our titles, or you know, we can put a Christian label on it and still be just like the world.

Riley Clemmons: That's right.

Joyce Meyer: And we just have to be so careful. I love that scripture in Romans, it says, "Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to..."

Erin Cluley: Yeah, that's a good one.

Joyce Meyer: "But see yourself according to the grace of God". It's talking about the gifts.

Riley Clemmons: That's good.

Joyce Meyer: And whatever I can do, I can only do that because God has enabled me to do that. And I would have a tendency, not as much anymore, but I've had a tendency to like, if I'm good at something, and you're not, then "What's wrong with you"? And we really have to learn that not everybody can do, if we could all do the same thing, then there wouldn't be a need for all these different people. God gives us different gifts. And of course, you know, Paul compares it to the body and how the body functions, you know, together as one. And boy, if we could just get happy with our part. And you know, I wrote a book recently on success, and I've written one on finding the will of God. And, you know, the biggest majority of people in the world are not ever gonna be on a platform. They're going to be...

Erin Cluley: Falling up their steps at work.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah. They're going to be housewives, ditch diggers, and window washers, and you know.

Ginger Stache: And important things.

Joyce Meyer: Can't they be a success?

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: So, what really is a success? A success is not being on a platform and having everybody stand up and clap every time you walk in the room.

Riley Clemmons: Yeah, that's good.

Joyce Meyer: You know, that may be a worldly success, but is heaven clapping?

Riley Clemmons: Whoo!

Joyce Meyer: Are they cheering?

Ginger Stache: I think it comes around so much to what you've said so many times, that it's not what we do. It's who we are. It's not your do, but your who.

Joyce Meyer: Right.

Ginger Stache: Not your who, but your do.

Joyce Meyer: Not your do, but your who.

Ginger Stache: You say it.

Joyce Meyer: Wait a minute.

Riley Clemmons: I liked it a lot.

Joyce Meyer: It's your who and not your do that's important.

Ginger Stache: Thank you, right.

Riley Clemmons: Yeah, that one.

Ginger Stache: So, we are gonna take a look at a little segment with Joyce teaching on that because I think it helps so much for us to realize where our worth and value comes from and who we really are that matters. So, let's listen to that and we'll be right back.

Joyce: It is amazing how we act to get some kind of a material free gift and yet let me tell ya something, you are loaded on the inside. You are loaded. You have God in you, father, son, and Holy Ghost. All the Fruit of the Spirit is in you. You've been justified and sanctified and made right with God through the blood of Jesus Christ. It's impossible to grow. It's impossible to get from the test through the moanies... Is this makin' sense? To the testimony, they kinda go together. You have the test, you get the moanies, then you finally get 'em together and now you got a testimony. But it's impossible to get from the test through the moanies to the testimony unless you learn, really, who you are in Christ and that your who is totally different than your do. I suffered so unbearably with guilt and condemnation. Oh, my gosh. It felt like a lifetime of a nightmare. If I didn't feel wrong, I didn't feel right. It started in my childhood because of the abuse, and the devil got me convinced there was something wrong with me. And from them on I had this little record playing in my head, "What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me"? Comparing myself with everybody else. I'd like to say that it stopped when I received Christ and got into the church, but it didn't. I just took it then to a spiritual level. I still compared myself with everybody else, and that was just Christians I was comparing myself with. And then even after I became a preacher, I compared myself with other preachers. It never stops until we learn who we are in Christ, that we are individuals in Christ and he has an individual plan for our lives, and that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. There's only on opportunity for repentance and getting in that elevator and pressing penthouse and going back up to the top floor. Yeah, sometimes we fall to the basement. Sometimes there are rough days. Sometimes there's hard times. There's things that we don't understand, but in the midst of all of it, God loves us.

Ginger Stache: So, during those basement times, during those hard days, what do we do with our thinking to keep us from getting back into that comparison trap or to get into that, "What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me"? Like you were saying.

Joyce Meyer: Well, you know, something that keeps coming to my heart that I think our listeners and viewers need to understand is we're all talking about things where we've been able to be honest with ourselves. And until you can do that, you can't get anywhere.