Joyce Meyer - Questions, Doubts and Answers About Faith - Part 2

Christine Caine: At the end of the day, the linchpin of the Christian faith is that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. None of us were there. So, 2,000 years ago, a Jewish man was dead and then rose again. Our entire faith is predicated on that. So, I'm like, "You know what? That doesn't make sense". None of that does. You can't even believe that, but by faith. So, I always come back, "Well, I don't even understand in my natural brain the very foundation of my faith, but I've so experienced the resurrected Savior in my heart". That is what has kept me going.

Joyce Meyer: I think every person, you have to get there. I don't know how many years ago it was when I got there, but I got there. And you know, like, if I wanted to go by circumstances, I have had a really rotten last year, you know. I mean, I had a surgery, got a blood clot, did damage to my nerves in my leg, fell and broke my other leg, was in a wheelchair for two and a half months. And then, you know, straight out of that, my back never quit hurting and had to have some other stuff done. And then just had some personal issues come up. It's just been like one thing after another, after another, after another. But if I look back, I actually still enjoyed the year. And I don't know how, but it was okay, you know? God gave me people to help me and to take care of me. And I wrote some good books while I was in that wheelchair. You know, you have to get like Paul, "I've learned how to be content, whether I'm abased or abounding". And I know maybe for people listening who are not at that place yet, they're like, they're still trying to figure out, "Well, how do you get there and how, how, how, and when, when, what, what, what, what"? And sooner or later, you will have to come to that point of just laying that Bible open and say, "I'm gonna believe it". And you can tell God how you feel. You can tell him what you think. You can tell him you think it's unfair, "I don't like this," but always end with, "But I love you and I trust you". If I believe this my whole life, and life comes to an end and I was wrong, I didn't lose anything because it still made me happier. But if you go your whole life and you don't believe and you get to the end of your life and you're wrong, you're in big trouble.

Christine Caine: Totally.

Joyce Meyer: And so, it's just smarter to believe than not to believe.

Erin Cluley: What you said makes me think of this. Do you think part of the reason we question our faith is because we're focusing on the bad circumstances? So, like your year, for example, you went through really hard stuff.

Joyce Meyer: Sure, yeah.

Erin Cluley: But do you think we get stuck focusing on how hard things are or how things don't make sense?

Joyce Meyer: I think we focus on the problems and what God hasn't done instead of what he has done. And any one of the four of us, God has done much more for us than he hasn't done.

Christine Caine: Yes.

Joyce Meyer: I mean, my goodness, I was such a mess after being abused, and abandoned, and divorced, oh, I was such a horrible mess and so unhappy and so hard to get along with. And I mean, just how God has changed me, you know, it's just amazing in itself. And so, yes, I agree with you. We think way too much about, you know, "You haven't done this, and you haven't done that". And, you know, "You haven't done this, and you haven't done that". But he's done so much more, than he hasn't done.

Erin Cluley: He has. There's some social media comments we've gotten. I mean, I just pulled a few. They say things like, "So much of the church needs to share their burdens instead of always pretending to be impenetrable". "I'm in such a crisis of faith". "I've been really struggling with my faith this past month". "I've been going through a hard time and feeling like God doesn't really care about me". So just all these questions of people trying to figure things out. And I just wonder, like, what you're saying, when you feel stuck like that, and you don't know how to get traction on your faith. Like, I want to have the faith you do, but I don't have traction. Is it just starting with, like, what's the first step you take? Like a flip of how you think about it?

Joyce Meyer: You know, in 1 Corinthians 2:2, Paul said something that I think we miss the value of sometimes. He said, "I'm determined to know nothing among you but Christ and him crucified". And I think we want to understand everything.

Erin Cluley: Oh, we do. I want to.

Joyce Meyer: We want to know everything. We want to know why this and why that. You know, when I finally got out of my father's house, I mean, I came to a crossroads of, "Okay, God, I prayed when I was little that you would deliver me from that abuse and you didn't. So why? Are you real or not"? And God gave me some sort of an answer. I don't really have time to get into all of it, but it's like I could not not believe. It's like he didn't get me out of it, but he did get me through it. And now he's used it in an absolutely unbelievable way to set millions of other people free who've been abused. And if he would have just gotten me out of it miraculously, you know, we always want the miracle, but the miracle doesn't really deepen your faith. It's going through that deepens your faith. And that's really the only way you can help everybody else.

Ginger Stache: Chris, you have a quote in your one of your books that goes along with this so well. You say, "Hope is the anchor to our souls. When a link in our chain is weak, then the whole thing can get disconnected".

Christine Caine: Yeah.

Ginger Stache: So, when there's a weak link in that chain and we face something that is a terrible thing in our life, you know, that is where it can crumble. And so, tell me what you mean by that and how people avoid that from happening and keep that chain strong.

Christine Caine: Yeah, it's a big one, because, you know, the fact is that hope ultimately is Jesus. I mean, the reason isn't going to be our hope. And sometimes it doesn't really matter how much you understand it. Like, you know, even, I was sexually abused. I could try to rehearse and try to understand it till the cows come home, but I needed healing from it, which only Jesus could do, no matter how much I understood.

Ginger Stache: You can't get one if you stick with the other, can you?

Christine Caine: No. And Jesus is that ultimate hope we have as an anchor for our soul. And he is firm and secure. So, all those other things are linking us to the anchor. Now, the fact is, if somewhere I put more trust in the links than I do the anchor, then this whole thing's gonna unravel. I mean, you know, we rescue the victims of human trafficking. There's so much trauma. There's so much pain. The ultimate hope is Jesus. Faith is predicated on trust, not understanding. So that's why it's "Trust in the Lord with all your heart". And so, what the enemy tries to do is to undermine your trust in God so that you no longer trust that he's good, that he does good, that he'll come through for you. So, then he's no longer your anchor. And that's kind of really, a lot of what we're seeing, and a lot of the links in the chains kind of breaking down is people trying to understand more than trust. And that's not gonna work. And also, you've got to think, "Okay, what is it that I have got more trust in than Jesus"? So, normally, when you get to your crisis, so, the guys that were on the road to Emmaus and Jesus is walking with them, and they said, "We had hoped he was the one". And normally what is revealed, and I think in the last few years when you didn't quite get what you wanted, maybe that door didn't open, that person left you, that leader fell, you had hoped. And I think what God has revealed to us is where a lot of our misplaced hopes were, that we had hopes in people or things and not ultimately in the anchor, Jesus. So, dare I go here? I know this.

Erin Cluley: Do it.

Christine Caine: It might be premature for some people. But I think, and I talk to my own life as well, but everybody, I think if I look at the last few years, you go, "Wow, I had more idols in my life than I thought". And it's idolatry. And I got disappointed with God because that person didn't come through or that thing didn't happen. But actually, then my hope was not in Jesus.

Joyce Meyer: Right.

Christine Caine: My hope was in that thing. And I expected to get from people what I could only get from God. So, in a sense, it was God's mercy that I had to go through because it led me to my anchor, Jesus.

Ginger Stache: Wow, yeah.

Joyce Meyer: I know I've heard of situations or even heard people say like when a pastor fell, the person decided to no longer believe in God. Well, they weren't believing in God to start with. They were believing in that person. You know, people are gonna disappoint you. And that's why we have to be very, very careful about, really, to tell you the truth, you almost have to get to the point where nothing much surprises you. Because the truth is you never know for sure what people are gonna do, but you do know what God is gonna do. Because he's always, always faithful to his word. And I was thinking about our changing culture, and I've got something coming up where I'm gonna teach about bringing the generations together. And I thought, you know, "Time changes, generations change, clothing styles change, everything changes, but God's word never changes". And so, you know, right now, the style is more casual, you know, the society's more casual. But that can become a problem because then if morals become casual along with that. I mean, it's fine if you wanna dress casual, or have a more casual attitude, but if you're... We always have to, our morality has to stick with the Word of God. And that's where we get in trouble when we start letting our morals go with culture rather than staying with where they should be.

Ginger Stache: Do you think that pride plays a big part in all of this too? Because I think when we can't find the answers that we're satisfied with, if we lean into faith or if we just trust, it almost makes us feel like we're weak. Like, "I need to do this in myself and it's going to be weakness if I say, 'i just believe it because I believe it'".

Christine Caine: Well, I think, yes, it's the root of most of these things because at the end of the day, I'm saying, "I know better than God".

Ginger Stache: Right.

Christine Caine: And that's a dangerous place to be.

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Christine Caine: And it comes back, you know, Joyce and I were talking yesterday over lunch, a lack of fear of the Lord. So, I'm not saying, you know, when I wrote "How did I get here"? I wanted to be very open with people and say during that season, it was more, and we have to be careful not to confuse this. You know, I had a whole lot of stuff happen. My mother died. Nick's sister-in-law died. His brother-in-law died. We had four deaths back and forth and my sister-in-law died too. So back to Australia, you know, a lot of trips for funerals, one after the other. We had a big challenge in the ministry. I had a personal betrayal from a friend. It was like one of those perfect storms. And I remember coming home and nick was watching a documentary on the navy seals, you know, as he does. And it was on hell week. Now, I didn't know what that was. And then, so it's this week where you go in, whether you're going to be picked for the seals, and they break you down emotionally, physically, mentally. You all know: you're Americans. You know, I had to learn this, but it's intense. I mean, the deal is to try to make you ring the bell so that you tap out and you go. And I remember there was this one scene, the guys were jumping out of the helicopter, and I just started to cry. So, nick already is like, "What is going on? Like, okay, should I call the ambulance"? Okay. So, I go...

Ginger Stache: Not everybody cries during a navy seal documentary.

Christine Caine: And me, in particular, like I'm not that emotive about. But I said, you know, "I think that's how I feel". And he said, "What do you mean"? And I said, "It's like", because I've always said, "We're like the navy seals," you know, I'm out there doing evangelism, out there rescuing the victims of trafficking. We're on the frontline of what God's doing. I said, "I feel like I've been dropped out of the helicopter and the Lord's given me an assignment and you know, I've got to swim to shore, and I know I can do it in my natural strength. I know I've got enough muscle built to do it". I said, "But for the first time, in my 30 years of following Jesus, I don't know if I want to". And it was that, I mean, it was deeply, you know, sobering in that moment for me. And it's kind of like, "Wow, where have I gotten to inside"? Like, I had never, I've had plenty of times with, "I don't know if I can, I don't know if I'm good", but not, "I actually know what this is going to take. And I don't know if I actually really am up for it again. I've just been like battered and bruised so much". It was like...

Ginger Stache: Well, you're thinking about ringing that bell.

Christine Caine: Just ringing the bell.

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Christine Caine: And I think, in that moment, like the other side of that here, I'm like, "I don't even know how God got me through, but he did". And my strength of going, "I came so close to ringing the bell and didn't ring the bell". I'm just saying this to someone, like, sometimes, it's not even that you're doubting everything. "Could God have got me through it? Could he have sent less trouble my way"? Yes. "Could he have stopped that person from betraying me"? Like, yes. "Would I have preferred it"? Yes. But at the end of the day, he didn't. And for some reason in his sovereignty, he thought I could handle it and I was gonna grow through it. "Do I want to go through it again"? No. "But am I stronger for it"? Yes. I don't know how else to explain it. And I think that comes back to your thing about "Through". You know, "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death" or "I parted the seas and you walk through," he seems to be the God that delivers us through more than he delivers us from.

Joyce Meyer: When you think about it, everybody wants a miracle.

Christine Caine: Everyone wants to be delivered from something.

Joyce Meyer: I mean who doesn't? Who doesn't?

Christine Caine: Yeah, totally.

Joyce Meyer: But you would think that getting a miracle would bring you closer to God.

Christine Caine: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: But I've seen, by experience, in the lives of people who have gotten miracles, healing miracles and things, it doesn't really bring them closer to God. But the person who goes through and comes out on the other side, they end up much closer to God. And I think, many times, we pray for those miracles and God is giving us a miracle, but it's a miracle in our soul. And it comes the harder way.

Christine Caine: And I think, as we're talking about like, doubt and perhaps some people that have experienced deconstruction, my confidence is always that: he won't let go of you. He will never leave us nor forsake us. There's no way you can run from God that he's not gonna be there. That ultimately, for any parent listening to this worried about your kids right now, that's why I'm like, keep praying because it does work.

Joyce Meyer: Yes, absolutely.

Christine Caine: And God is the hound of heaven and it's like, he will go after them and find them. He's found people in the crack houses if need be. He's found them where... So, my thing is, you might think, you know, you can run from him, but he's got you.

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: You know, too much reasoning can really get you confused.

Christine Caine: Oh, very much so.

Joyce Meyer: And I was really big on reasoning. I mean, I had to understand it. And I had to get beyond that. And I go back to that thing, I just feel like I need to say it again in 1 Corinthians 2, where Paul said, "I'm determined to know nothing". I think Paul was very intelligent.

Christine Caine: Yes.

Joyce Meyer: He obviously was very intelligent. He wrote two thirds of the New Testament. He was highly educated, and he was accustomed to knowing things. And when you get in a relationship with God, "Faith is the evidence of things not seen"...

Christine Caine: Yes.

Joyce Meyer: It's the substance of things that you don't feel and you take it by faith. And somewhere along the line, I think Paul had to get to what we're talking about today. And I don't know how long he was born again before he said that. Could have been a while, but he finally said, "I'm just not gonna try to figure it out".

Christine Caine: I'm thinking when you just said 1 Corinthians...

Joyce Meyer: 2 Corinthians.

Christine Caine: 2 Corinthians, yeah. I'm thinking, remember in 1 Corinthians, I think, chapter 1 and 2, where he says, "When you were called, not many of you were wise, not many of you were intelligent, not many of you", and then he talks about the world's wisdom versus God's wisdom. And I have been in chapters 1 and 2 a lot over this last year because so many people are either checking out of their faith because they think, "Well, it's just too simplistic. It doesn't answer all the complex issues of the world". "If God was so loving, he would be more inclusive". "And why is there just so many", you know, "The Bible has got so many fundamental flaws". But I really love that Paul's like, "Listen, this thing is foolishness". And this is again where we have to end up coming back to, "The cross is foolishness to those that are perishing". And that, you know, in preaching, at the end of the day, this thing is contrary to man's wisdom.

Joyce Meyer: It doesn't make sense. I can't explain it. You can't explain faith. And you asked before, Ginger, if it was pride. And I think perfectly okay to ask God any question. He can handle your questions. But to have to know in order to believe is pride.

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Christine Caine: I'm just thinking, could you imagine Noah, if he had to know like, when God said, "Build an ark". He's like, "What's an ark? I don't know". Like, "Rain's coming". "What's rain"? I mean, it's like, how could you reason that? What was an ark? What's rain? You know, Moses is standing in front of a Red Sea with the Egyptian army behind him, and you know, a million complaining Israelites. He's like, "What are we gonna do? I don't know. I've got to stick". And I'm thinking like it's all foolish. David, a little slingshot, a few rocks.

Joyce Meyer: When God told Abraham, "Leave everything you know and go to a place I'll show you after you start going".

Ginger Stache: Right.

Christine Caine: What does that do? Like, I mean, we could go story after story, and you go that actually faith is foolish. Everyone looked like a fool in their generation. And so, in our world of reason, I think what, we've confused things. I think we've confused God with Siri or ChatGPT because we just like, "Hey Siri, play this". "Hey Siri, tell me what this is". "ChatGPT, can you", so, we somehow...

Joyce Meyer: I don't even know what that one is.

Ginger Stache: That's AI.

Christine Caine: AI, artificial intelligence. So, it's like, you know, so take Siri on another level. "Alexa, play this". That's how we treat God. Like, tell me, "Oh, God's not gonna tell me"?

Ginger Stache: That's a great example.

Christine Caine: And you think about this how often we go, "Siri, how do I feel..."? You could try this on your phone. "Siri, how do I feel about..." And Siri will tell me how I feel.

Siri: Sorry, I can't help you.

Ginger Stache: That's so funny!

Joyce Meyer: "Sorry, I can't help you with that".

Christine Caine: You cannot even make this stuff up, but this is how we're raising a generation to treat God.

Joyce Meyer: That's perfect.

Christine Caine: Exactly, like, "God", and if God doesn't come through, and see, we have things that are now verbs. Like so, we Uber to... Uber didn't even exist as a word, but now we actually, it's a verb. We Uber places. We don't have just Amazon or Amazon prime. We have Amazon now. I want it coming today. And we expect from God, "Hey siri, tell me". "Amazon now". "I want my Uber". "Download this app". "I want to binge watch my Netflix series". So, "If God's not gonna answer me now, I'm gonna binge watch". And I'm thinking, we have...

Ginger Stache: Oh, come on.

Joyce Meyer: You're absolutely right. We've turned all that into we expect God to behave the same way.

Christine Caine: That's right. As artificial intelligence. And the issue is God's not ai.

Ginger Stache: I'm turning siri off. There's no more answers.

Christine Caine: And I think this is what comes down to the fear of the Lord. This is actually what the fear of the Lord really is. God's not artificial intelligence. God is the supreme intelligence. And he is the supreme Creator. And this is why, I mean, I know the danger that's gonna do, but I also think God's gonna use it to bring people back to him to go, "Are you kidding me? God is not, like, on demand". And I think...

Ginger Stache: Oh, that's so good.

Christine Caine: We think he's, like, on demand. And so much of our deconstruction and unbelief and doubt is 'cause he's not being like a sugar daddy coming through when I want him to come through.

Joyce Meyer: That's a very good example. Maybe one of the reasons why I don't have as much trouble with it is because I don't understand all the other stuff.

Ginger Stache: Well, thank you guys all so much. I think there's been so many great points brought up here and hopefully just took a lot of pressure off of some of our friends who are listening, going through this, your children are going through this, whoever it might be, that you can ask those questions, that there's such love in God's heart and he wants you to know truth. He's not trying to hide himself from us. And yet we do need to understand that faith is not something that we can understand in an earthly way. So, it does take experience with him, but there are answers for you. When you seek God, with your whole heart, he promises that you will find him. He is there for you.