Joyce Meyer - Questions, Doubts and Answers About Faith - Part 1

Ginger Stache: And I'm so glad everyone's here with us, because I know this is something that all of us at one time or another in our life deal with, and that is just questions about our faith. It's those big questions that might come up at certain times in your life. And especially, if you've either not been raised in the faith and so really have no idea what God is. And so, we get to crisis points or we get to need points in our life, and we start asking those questions, you know, "Where's my fulfillment"? "Where's what I need in life"? The other side, you can flip that coin, and it's those of us who have been raised in the church and kind of could be caught in our parents' faith and not understanding why we have our own. And so, then asking those questions, "God," you know, "I need to know, for me, who you are". So, we're talking about, is it okay, first of all, to ask the big questions to is God big enough to handle?

Joyce Meyer: I think it's healthy. I think it's very healthy. I remember one of my daughters going through that and she said, "I have to find out if I believe what I believe because I believe it or if I just believe it because you taught it to me all my life". And I think everybody needs their own faith. You can't make it on grandma's faith or mama's faith because if that's all you have, when you have a crisis in your life, you will fall apart.

Christine Caine: Totally.

Erin Cluley: Was she nervous to tell you that? 'Cause I just wonder, if your a mom, her profession is to talk...

Joyce Meyer: No, because we were kind of going through something anyway. There was something that happened: I forget. She just didn't agree with it. And it kind of provoked her then to have to find out what she really believed. And it was a healthy thing for her. And I think that everybody needs, you need to know.

Christine Caine: Totally. I'm just thinking with my youngest, she's about to go to college. And the particular college she wants to go to, it's a very, very good school, but it also is a very kind of liberal school. And so, I said to her, I said, "I'm with you, soph, but", you know, I said, "I have to tell you, I've got great concerns because inherent in the school system in this are values that are very contrary to everything we've raised you". She goes, "Mom, you know, I've grown up in this house and I have my faith and if my faith cannot withstand the sort of secular ideology," she goes, "Well, then is it really true anyway"? And I said, "You know what"? I go, "Soph, that's fine because I've given, the Bible tells me to train you up in the way you should go, so I've done that". And I said, "And God is not nervous". He's not like, about to fall off his throne wondering whether he's gonna pass the test of truth.

Ginger Stache: Yeah, right.

Christine Caine: I go, "I am so confident in God and his word and his truth that you can ask him anything you want and you're about to be exposed to a lot of contrary thinking, to biblical thinking". I said, "But you're gonna find that, you know, God's always prevailed through all of that". But let me just say, having said that, my prayer life has also gone to another level.

Joyce Meyer: I think when people are searching to know what they believe, just thinking about your daughter, she's gonna have a lot of stuff thrown at her head that may make sense to her head that doesn't agree with the Bible, but it makes sense in her head. And I just want to caution people to always go back to what is really in my heart.

Christine Caine: Beautiful.

Joyce Meyer: You know, what's...

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: Because, you know, the Bible says that "The mind of the flesh", in Romans 8:6, it says, "The mind of the flesh", in the Amplified Bible, "Is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit".

Christine Caine: There you go.

Joyce Meyer: I love that.

Christine Caine: That's beautiful.

Joyce Meyer: "But the mind of the spirit is life and soul peace, both now and forever".

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: So, does what you believe give you peace? You know, or is it just a bunch of sense and reason without the Holy Spirit involved?

Ginger Stache: I think that's so important because there is that aspect where, like, I like to make things be logical and make sense. And that's not really, you think about it, that's not even the way the world works. It is not a logical place that we live in right now.

Christine Caine: Exactly.

Ginger Stache: So, what is my heart saying and building, not taking your brain out of it, of course, God wants us to think, but building our faith on what we know deep down, right here, and not building it on history of what somebody else has told us, or even emotion of, "If I don't feel it right now, does it not count"? So, one of the big questions here is the doubt that comes up when something doesn't go the way that we think it should. So, we're gonna begin with Joyce teaching a little bit, answering that question of doubt. And what do we do with that doubt? And is it okay to ask the questions? And then we'll be back with more.

I think a lot of times, even when it comes to trusting God, we may feel upset and anxious and worry is attacking our mind, but if you really ask yourself, "Okay, now what do I really believe? Do I really believe that God is going to leave me stranded in this situation and that he's not going to come through for me? What do I really believe"? And the bottom line is if you've had any experience with God at all, you'll have to say, "He'll come through. God will come through".

So, in teaching you how to deal with doubt, I want to just make sure that it's clear up front that I'm not telling you that you're never going to have doubts. Matter of fact, I think it's better to just be honest with God about 'em. I like the guy whose son was demon-possessed, and he went to Jesus and Jesus said, "All things are possible if you believe". And he said, "Well, I believe, Lord, but help my unbelief". You know, he still got his miracle. I think sometimes we get less from God when we try to pretend the phony faith that we don't have instead of just being honest with God, because you know what I found out about Jesus? He loves us enough that he will meet us where we're at. He doesn't make us come to him, he will meet us where we're at.

Think about Thomas. "Well, I'm just not going to believe. If I don't see the scars in your hands, in your side, I just cannot believe". And what did Jesus do? He showed them to him. He came and he met Thomas where he was at, and he said, "Now, more blessed are those who believe and have not seen, but you needed to see, so I've shown you". And you know what? Thomas went on to become a great evangelist in the nation of India. So, just because you don't have 100% perfect faith, that doesn't mean that God won't use you, and it doesn't mean that he won't meet you where you're at. Because I'll tell you what happens, the more experience that we have with God, the stronger our faith gets.

It's much harder for a baby believer to get through real difficult times than it is for somebody who has had a lot of experience with God. Because you've seen God work time and time and time and time again, and that's why even like the Psalmist David, when he was going through rough times, he would purposely remember the other things that God had done that brought him through. So, I want to make sure you're with me. Do you understand what I mean when I'm saying that we can live on the surface where all this stuff is going on, or we can go deeper and we can say, "Now, what is really in my heart"? 'cause I'll tell you the truth, all this word stuff that you get, you may not remember it in your brain, but it's doing you a lot more good than what you think it is.

And it's in there, and it's food for your spirit, and it's keeping you stronger than you think that you are. But if we're going to continue to just believe what our brain says and what we feel like all the time and all the lies of satan, then we're just going to give up and quit. I had a rough situation, something going on the last couple of weeks, and here I'm getting ready to come and teach on trusting God, and I felt like I didn't have a thimble full of faith. I kind of felt like, "Well, it's going to be really good for me to get up and try to tell everybody else to trust God all the time when I feel like I'm going to fall apart over this simple thing that I'm going through".

And you know, God revealed to me later that he let me go through that on purpose because he didn't want me to get up here and just act like, "Well, it's just simple to have faith and just trust God, and no matter what just believe God". I want you to know that I know what it's like. I know what you're going through if you've got serious problems in your life. And we're telling you in church all the time, "Well, trust God". It's much easier for us to stand up here and tell you to do it than it is for you to do it when your faith is being tested. But our faith will always be tested from time to time. How many of you have found that out? Your faith is always gonna be tested from time to time.

Ginger Stache: I love that you said that. I love so much that you can stand on a platform, as a preacher of the Word of God, and say, "I had a thimble full of faith," because you were going through a hard time...

Joyce Meyer: Right.

Ginger Stache: And you're just being transparent and being real. So, being able to tell people, you know, "We all face this sometimes," was that hard for you to do, or how did that go?

Joyce Meyer: Well, I don't really have too much trouble.

Ginger Stache: I knew when I asked, but...

Joyce Meyer: I mean, I think it's a gift from God, but I really don't have any trouble letting people into my life. I think that we have to be real with people. I don't have to pretend like I have perfect faith.

Ginger Stache: But a lot of Christians do.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah, a lot of them do. And I don't think God likes it either. I think he wants us to be real.

Erin Cluley: I remember being your daughter's age going into college and thinking, "I have to explore all the options because I am a college student, and that's what you do". So, I remember thinking through things logically.

Ginger Stache: There goes Chris's prayer life amped up, some more.

Christine Caine: Another level.

Erin Cluley: So, don't worry. It's gonna get good in just a second. I'll take a turn. It'll make you feel better. So, I remember questioning things just because that's what you're supposed to do. And as I started questioning things, then I really started questioning things and thinking, "What are these things that I believed in? They're not lining up with what I'm seeing". And then I don't feel like I had anybody say, "That's okay. It's okay for you to ask those questions. Just bring them to God and let him help you navigate it". And that was such a journey to learn. It was okay that I had those things. It didn't make me less than. I didn't lose my faith because I asked, "I don't understand this, God. These don't reconcile in my brain". But to learn that it's okay was a game-changer in my relationship with God.

Ginger Stache: I think, 'cause I'm similar, only it wasn't just when I was in college. It's like all the time.

Erin Cluley: Yesterday.

Ginger Stache: I'm just a questioner. And I think God's made me that way. And it's drawn me closer to him along the way. But it's also given me those times where I didn't have as much faith. And so, those scriptures with Thomas, that Jesus would do that for him, just say, "Here, come and look. Come in here close to me where you can see and look". Those were the things that have kept me steady through those questions because it was just like God saying, "You know, I get it. And that's why I've prepared a way for people like you, too".

Joyce Meyer: Yeah, right.

Christine Caine: Hello.

Ginger Stache: Yeah, there are so many of us and other people. I love that steadfast, simple faith. I respect that in people so much, but everyone is different. And what I love is that God has a path for all of us.

Christine Caine: Totally. And I think that the younger generation, I mean, people are asking questions. And I think we have to, my faith, it's not even so much anymore in how much I know. My confidence is in who God is. So even then with my kids, it's like, "You know what? Go and check it out because God is good". And if you are sincere in your quest and having your questions answered, then God will reveal it to you in a way that is right. I think some of what we're seeing in society and perhaps particularly the millennial generation, there's a lot of that generation that was initially told, "Just take everything at face value". And, you know, "We're gonna teach you a whole bunch of stuff and this is it". And what happened was some of the stuff that was taught was not really Jesus and the Bible. It was more Christian culture, or purity culture, or someone's opinion of maybe how marriage and family, but it wasn't necessarily biblical. And so, all of a sudden, some of that stuff when it's tested, well, it falls apart. We're living in a different time and a different age, or maybe even the people that taught it to them, their lives fell apart. And so, now, they're like, "Hang on a minute. Nothing was true because that person that told me this wasn't even living it". And I get all that. You know, I really get why someone would think like that. So again, then I'm going, if you truly are seeking, it's good to ask the question and go, "Okay, what did I believe that was just kind of Christian culture? That where did I maybe put too much emphasis on a person and not on the word"? Because I still think if you truly go back to the word and to Jesus, you'll discover he actually never let you down. It's maybe the system or people let you down. And so, sometimes, if the house of cards falls, there's actually a good side to that because it'll lead you to the real Jesus, I think.

Erin Cluley: I'm in that age group. I think, I am a millennial. Yes, I am. That is me. Thank you. Let me count for a second. And so, I have seen that play out. And I grew up in Christian culture where, I grew up in a really great church, but I see looking back, so many things that I thought were God, were not God. It was what people made the church out to be. And so, having to relearn that, but it has done what you said. It's pushed me to Jesus and see those, I let people get in the way. People let people get in the way of who God really is. And I think that that's a totally different shift in how you think about it.

Christine Caine: Yeah.

Ginger Stache: How do you take that then? Because there are so many people who have had exactly what you guys are talking about, been disappointed by people, been disappointed by the church, been disappointed by what they think God should have done. Where do you take those questions and what do you encourage people to do with them?

Christine Caine: Yeah, I think that's so important. And right now, on the earth, this is a huge question in the church. And I think I'm so grateful people are listening to this podcast because I want someone hearing this to go, number one: it is okay to question. And, you know, I'm going to tell you two things. One thing, of course, is to go to God. I mean, the Bible is full, Psalms, I say this. I love the Psalms because you've got David or whoever's writing a Psalm. David's being chased by Saul and all his enemies and they're throwing spears at him and he's hiding in caves. He has this moment where he cries out in the Psalm, and he gives you language for it. It's like, "God, this is not fair. Why do they hate me? I never did anything. And why are my enemies prospering? And why are the unrighteous? And I'm here in a cave, and life sucks".

Ginger Stache: All the big questions.

Christine Caine: All of it. And then, "By the way, I love you, Lord, and I trust you, Lord". I have had seasons in my... God actually gives us language in the Psalms. There's a whole book called Lamentations. I think sometimes when you come from our side of the church, we think, "Oh, it's bad to question, or doubt, or pour out your heart to God and say, 'it really is disappointing to me that I prayed for that person and they didn't get healed'. Or, 'it's disappointing to me that that leader fell and I trusted them'. Or, 'it's so disappointing to me that I felt that if I sort of did everything purity culture told me that my marriage would be perfect and now my spouse has had an affair and walked out'". I mean, what I want to say to people is you don't have to squash that down and pretend it didn't happen and it's not real and listen to some legalistic pharisee that would tell you that it's sin. That's just wrong. And I think that has caused more people to walk out than anything else. So, you go to God, number one, and you can vent as much as you want. It is not gonna freak God out. And he knows, I've learned this in my own life, he knows what's in my heart anyway. So, really, I can say it. But also, who you go to is very important, in terms, of people. Because, right now, if you want someone to wallow in that pit with you, you're gonna find them. There's plenty of podcasts, there's plenty of stuff out there where people are going to take you down that track. And be very careful that what starts as a legitimate question doesn't open a door to the enemy to take you off track. And I think we're seeing a lot of that at the moment.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah. You know, I always go back to the more experience you have with God, the stronger your faith gets. And I came to a point, a few years ago, and this is a little bit different than what we've been talking about, but I think everybody will get here. I came to a point where I just had decided "I'm gonna believe". And I don't care if I don't understand it. I don't care if I don't feel it. You know, like, I've been in a season right now in my life where it's been a long time since I have like, heard something really special, or specific from God, or had what I would call a visitation from God, like a real feeling God. I know a lot of people call that "A dry season". I don't call it that. But God does sometimes hide himself. And anybody listening, I would just tell you, if you are gonna go by how you feel, as to whether or not you believe God, you are gonna be out before you ever get started.

Christine Caine: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: Because you can't, you know, like, if I went by what I felt like, sometimes, I might say, "Well, you know, where are you? Are you even here"? But I go back to, there's something deep inside me, from the years of experience with God, that I know that he's here and I know that he loves me. And I trust him enough that if he's being quiet right now, he must have a reason. And when he wants to say something to me, he will. And a lot of people go way too much on their feelings. And you know, somebody, somewhere along, we were talking about this program, somebody said something about, some people are saying, "Well, does faith really work because I trusted God for this, and it didn't happen"? But the first thing that came up in me is real faith does not have a time limit on it. You know, you can't, I mean, Abraham waited 20 years for the promise to come to pass. Joseph was 13 years, long time in prison for something that he didn't do. If you talked about David, I did a devotional, I mean, not a devotional, yeah, a devotional on all the Psalms. And the thing that amazed me about Psalms the most was just how gut level, honest David was with God about how he felt. But he always came back to, "But I trust you. But I trust you". "This is how I feel", and I think that's fine. "This is how I feel". It's kind of like venting to a friend, you know. "This is how I feel, but this is what I know".

Christine Caine: Yes.

Ginger Stache: I completely agree. And I think with what you're saying about experience with God, it really has been me wrestling with God at different times, that I've seen the evidence of who he is, of what the Bible says is true, of the character of God, learning that. And you know, so many different times in my life that I've seen it. I've seen the evidence and so I know deep down. So, then when I have those questions and I'm not real happy with the way something went right now, it pulls me back into the arms of that loving father. You don't always love what your parents do. But if that love is consistent and unconditional, it's gonna wrap you right back up in a safe place. And that's where I always end up going again, back to the arms of the one who loves me most.

Erin Cluley: It reminds me of job. You know, we all know how we feel about job.

Ginger Stache: Erin loves to talk about job.

Erin Cluley: I do. I should try and limit it, but it's such a good, it's so good. But even with the friendship thing, even, I was just reading it recently again, and this never stood out to me till now is he talks to his friends about what's happening first, and they give him terrible advice. And they're making him question and it's just terrible. But when he goes to God with his doubt and his concern, God puts him in his place, but he does it in a loving way. I mean, he's telling him, "You don't know. I know". But I thought it's so beautiful of a picture of job tried to deal with it. And then he eventually he goes to God, and he gets great wisdom. And I just thought it's such a great picture of all of this.