Joyce Meyer - Who is the Holy Spirit? - Part 1

Did you know that when Jesus left the earth after his resurrection he said that it is a good thing because he was leaving behind someone even better? Really? This must be someone we need to meet, right? Well, today, on the program, we are exploring this great mystery. Who is the Holy Spirit and why do we need him so very much? Joyce is with Erin Cluley, and me, as we share personal stories on our own journeys to understand, and allow the Holy Spirit to work in our lives. So, come on, join in to this discussion that came from a talk it out podcast, and I pray that this will help you to forge a deeper connection with the Holy Spirit.

Ginger Stache: Hi friends, we are going to talk it out today. We have some really great, deep, spiritual things to talk about because we want to know more about who the Holy Spirit is. And this is the place to do it because this is where all of our girlfriends come together, we dig into God's word, we talk about how it applies to real life and we don't hold anything back. I've got Erin Cluley with us, our friend, Joyce meyer. I'm Ginger stache and you are right here with us, on the pink couch.

Erin Cluley: Right here.

Ginger Stache: That's the spot. It's really comfy.

Erin Cluley: It is.

Ginger Stache: It's really super cozy.

Erin Cluley: Would you like me to scoot closer to you?

Ginger Stache: Well, then you're gonna be sitting on their lap.

Erin Cluley: Oh, that's true.

Joyce Meyer: It would almost be worth redecorating my house to have that pink couch in it. That is beautiful. That's a beautiful couch.

Erin Cluley: It is.

Joyce Meyer: But it...

Ginger Stache: I know where we can get you another one.

Joyce Meyer: But it really would not go in my house.

Erin Cluley: Dave likes it, though. I mean, he's come and he sat on this and he really loved it.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah, he loves pink.

Ginger Stache: I can really see that, yeah. You know, I have the most bizarro story for talking about the Holy Spirit.

Erin Cluley: Good.

Ginger Stache: It's just, God works in the most mysterious ways. So, I'm gonna be sharing that in a little bit.

Joyce Meyer: Okay, good.

Ginger Stache: Not just yet. It's just so strange.

Erin Cluley: What a tease.

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: Okay.

Ginger Stache: So, I think a great place to start because there are so many different camps, so many different perceptions, and things that people think about the Holy Spirit, so let's just start with: who is the Holy Spirit? You know, some people would say, you know, "What is the Holy Spirit"? So, Joyce, can you give us a little primer?

Joyce Meyer: Well, obviously, we have one God, but he manifests in three persons. And nobody's gonna mentally understand the Trinity so there's no point in trying to figure it out. It's something you accept by faith. But the Holy Spirit is God: just like Jesus is God. We have God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. And for some strange reason, I mean, I know what it is. It's the enemy. The Holy Spirit seems to get left out a lot. It's like, you know, we hear a lot about the father, and we hear a lot about Jesus, but, I mean, I went to church for years and years and I mean I heard the term father, son, and Holy Spirit, but I don't recall ever hearing a teaching...

Erin Cluley: Yeah, it's true,

Joyce Meyer: Just on the Holy Spirit or what he does for us in our lives. And gosh, it is so important for people to understand. And you know, people get all wigged out about terms and whether you call it "The baptism of the Holy Spirit" or "Endued with power from on high" or "Filled with the Holy Spirit," I don't care what you call it, all I know is we need to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ginger Stache: I think that's one of the interesting things too because, somehow, like you said, satan just loves to dig in there wherever he can and this becomes such a divisive thing among Christians too...

Joyce Meyer: Well, right.

Ginger Stache: When you talk about the Holy Spirit.

Joyce Meyer: Well, and a lot of times, the things that the enemy uses to divide us the most are the ones that really are the most important.

Erin Cluley: Oh yeah, that makes sense.

Joyce Meyer: And he makes, you know, he's not gonna make a fuss about something that doesn't matter that much. But, I mean, Jesus said, "You'll be better off when I go away. Because when I go away, I will send the Holy Spirit". And the reason...

Ginger Stache: That's kind of mind-blowing. It's like, how can we be better off than...?

Joyce Meyer: Well, because Jesus was in a body just like we are, and he can only be one place at one time. But the Holy Spirit can be everywhere. He lives in every believer. And Paul encourages us to be filled with the spirit. And he's talking about like, daily being filled with the spirit. And he said, "Speaking to yourselves in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs". And so, it's kind of interesting because it's what goes on inside of you that helps you be filled with the Holy Spirit. You're not gonna be filled with the Holy Spirit thinking judgmental, critical, negative comments about everyone. So, our thoughts have a lot to do with being filled with the spirit. But I mean, I don't even know how to tell you how important the Holy Spirit is. It's just like I have no words to express it. Because he gives us the power to do what we do. The Bible says in Roman, I mean, in John 14, he's our teacher. He's the one that shows us how to pray when we don't know how to pray as we ought to. He brings us into all truth. And Jesus said, "There's many things that I want to tell you but you're not ready for them yet, but the Holy Spirit will reveal them to you at the right time". He convicts the world of sin, convinces of righteousness. He convicts us when we're doing things that are wrong. I mean, he brings things to our remembrance when we need them like, you know, you've been in situations and all of a sudden, you'll just remember a scripture that, you know, you kind of haven't even thought about in a long, long time, and the Holy Spirit does that. And then there's also...

Ginger Stache: Don't you love that as you get older that the Holy Spirit will bring things to your remembrance?

Erin Cluley: Or when your kids lose your car keys...

Joyce Meyer: Right.

Erin Cluley: And then you ask him for help. I mean, he will show you...

Ginger Stache: Yeah, that's true.

Erin Cluley: Where they are.

Joyce Meyer: Well, there are gifts of the spirit. One of them's the word of knowledge. And they're very practical gifts. It's not just things to try to impress somebody in church, you know, "Oh, here's a word of knowledge". They're mainly for our lives. You have the Fruit of the Spirit, and you have the gifts of the spirit and we need all of them.

Ginger Stache: Yeah, so, you mentioned that the church where you were, you weren't hearing a lot about the Holy Spirit. I grew up in a church where, like you said, we knew father, son, and Holy Spirit. But I didn't know a lot more than that. And they gave me such a fantastic, I'm so grateful for that church and where God had me. They gave me such a fantastic foundation. But there was more that I was craving, and I didn't know what it was. And so, I was in my 20's, somewhere, and I just wanted more of God. And I knew what other people talked about, and honestly, sometimes, it sounded a little crazy to me because it was so foreign to me. And honestly, some people were a little crazy at times. You know, that's the way we get sometimes. But the strangest thing happened the way that God kind of revealed a little bit to me, is the TV station where I was working. We were interviewing and having meadowlark lemon, as a guest. Do you know who meadowlark lemon is?

Joyce Meyer: The basketball player, right?

Ginger Stache: Yeah. Yeah, so, he's one of the Harlem globetrotters, from years back.

Erin Cluley: What's his name?

Ginger Stache: Meadowlark lemon.

Erin Cluley: I love it. I don't know him.

Ginger Stache: Fabulous. Like a trick basketball player. The Harlem globetrotters, they go around and they play fun games, and they do tricks. And so, he was one of them. And he was a strong Christian, and he came. So, my friend, amy, and I were hosting him, and I was interviewing him. And so, we had like a whole day with meadowlark. So, it's so funny because he taught me how to spin a basketball on my finger. I've got a picture doing that with him and he told me a lot about the Holy Spirit. So, I learned so much about the Holy Spirit from meadowlark lemon, of all places. And I think, maybe, it's because I'm from Indiana and that's... God knows basketball is a part of my life.

Erin Cluley: It matters to you a lot.

Ginger Stache: Yeah! And so, he was able to use that. But the thing that I also learned from that was that, you know, I learned what I was craving and what I was searching for that it was available to me, that it's part of who we are as believers, and there's more to receive after that. But then, you know, you always wanna go back to the Word of God because not everything he told me was exactly on point. Like he was talking about learning how saying these words to speak in tongues. And you know, don't go there. You don't have to be taught a gift like that. But anyway.

Joyce Meyer: But it is a gift that is important for people.

Ginger Stache: Absolutely but it doesn't go by, "Read this script and now you're..."

Erin Cluley: Right.

Joyce Meyer: But interestingly enough, of all the gifts of the spirit, that one has caused more trouble between Christians than any other one. So, what does that tell you?

Erin Cluley: So true.

Ginger Stache: That it matters.

Erin Cluley: It does.

Ginger Stache: Yeah.

Erin Cluley: I grew up in a church... Were you done with your church story?

Ginger Stache: Yeah, go.

Erin Cluley: I didn't know. Are we done?

Ginger Stache: We're done here.

Joyce Meyer: Are you done with meadowlark?

Ginger Stache: We are done with meadowlark, yes.

Erin Cluley: I know he was cool. I grew up in a church where the Holy Spirit was a big part of it. And so, it was a charismatic church, and we talked a lot about the Holy Spirit. So, I saw things that were not seen at my friends' churches. And I remember taking them to a Pentecostal church when I started college and they were all Baptist. And it was an intense service, and I looked down the row...

Joyce Meyer: Were you trying to lose all your friends, or what?

Erin Cluley: It's amazing they kept me because they looked at me like with huge eyes and they were like, "What is happening"? And I said, "We'll talk when this is over and let me, I'll explain this to you". But so, I grew up knowing those kinds of things and it was familiar, but what I didn't know that I think I've learned so much from you, is that not only is the Holy Spirit involved in some things like that, but also like, in my everyday life: what does the Holy Spirit look like on a Tuesday when I'm struggling to be a mom and a wife?

Joyce Meyer: Well, that's the most important part.

Erin Cluley: Yes, and that's the part I didn't know about.

Joyce Meyer: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I was asked to teach in a Bible college that we had at our church on the gifts of the spirit. And at first, it kind of concerned me because I didn't always feel like that in a service I operated in all those gifts of the spirit. And what God taught me is they're really mainly for your everyday life. You know, they're for us to get words of wisdom from God when we need 'em, and words of knowledge, when we need 'em. Even like you. I mean, I've had the Holy Spirit just show me where things are that I can't find. I mean, that happens pretty frequently.

Erin Cluley: Yeah, me too.

Joyce Meyer: And you know, I do speak in tongues, and I thank God for that. Some people don't and that's fine, too. There's gifts of healings. We can lay hands on the sick for healing, and the working of miracles. And to me, one of the most important gifts is the gift of faith. And I can tell you an interesting story about that. I think sometimes you have it, and you don't know you have it. I mean, when I look back at some of the things I did, and some of the things I stepped out into, I thought, "Did I have a mind at all"?

Erin Cluley: Yeah.

Joyce Meyer: I mean, I would have had to have been crazy to have done some of the things that I did and I just felt like it was what God wanted me to do, and so I did it. And somebody said to me, one time, a minister actually, don clowers, a friend of mine, he said "Well, don't you realize, Joyce, that God's given you a gift of faith for this ministry"? And see, a gift of faith is beyond normal faith. It's beyond the faith that saves you. It's a supernatural, higher order of faith that God gives you to do things that you would not ordinarily do. Like, it would not frighten me at all to stand up in front of three million people and preach.

Erin Cluley: That's amazing.

Joyce Meyer: But, you know, I wouldn't wanna go into McDonald's and ask for a cup of water if I wasn't gonna sit in there and eat. And so, it's interesting how you, you know, God will give you the faith to do certain things that wouldn't even be natural for you. So, the gifts of the spirit are very practical. And I'm concerned, because I don't feel like these things are being taught enough these days. I think that we've kinda backed off and people...

Ginger Stache: We don't wanna upset anybody.

Joyce Meyer: People need the supernatural. There's a part of us that craves the supernatural.

Ginger Stache: You can tell that by everything you see around us.

Joyce Meyer: Well, yeah.

Erin Cluley: Because they're talking about it and they're using language that you see in the Bible but they're missing.

Joyce Meyer: Well, my concern is, is if the church doesn't fill that need the devil will.

Ginger Stache: That's right. Absolutely.

Joyce Meyer: And I know, in my own case, I was so hungry for something, didn't know what, like you, great foundation on faith, in my church. Loved it: glad I was there. But the supernatural wasn't part of the teaching. And I worked with a girl that was really heavily into astrology. And she started reading my chart and telling me what days I could get a haircut, and this, and that, and something else. And when I look back on that, I think, because I was hungry, and I wasn't getting what I needed from my church, the devil was more than happy to step in and fill that place. And so, we really need to teach people about the supernatural in a sane way that makes sense.

Ginger Stache: So, this scripture, when I found this it was such a sense of peace for me. Because there was a long time that I was wondering, "What's wrong with me? Why do I not understand this? Why do I not have some of these gifts, different things"? And acts 1:8 says, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the world"... That's the wrong scripture. I'm gonna read you a different scripture.

Erin Cluley: That's a good one though.

Ginger Stache: Here it is. Acts 2:38 and 39 says, "Peter replied, 'repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, for all whom the Lord will call'". The Holy Spirit is for everybody. And when I have that relationship with God, when you have that relationship with Christ and he's part of you, the Holy Spirit is part of it because they're one. So, learning that for me was huge. And then it was the next steps like, you're talking about, is, "Okay how can I understand what more there is"? The difference of having the Holy Spirit active in your life and inviting him to guide and be filled by him to overflowing on a daily basis.

Joyce Meyer: You know the way I explain it and this is just my way of putting it: makes sense to me. So, I hope it makes sense to other people. Obviously, when you receive Christ, you receive the Holy Spirit because they are all one. You can't get one without the other. And so, you do receive the Holy Spirit. But have you surrendered to the Holy Spirit? You know, you can have the Holy Spirit but not be filled with the Holy Spirit because that requires a surrender of your life to him. And so many Christian people, they only want to give certain parts of themselves to God. Or they, I say it like this, "You want enough of Jesus to stay out of hell but not enough to live in victory". And I came to a point where I was so dissatisfied with my Christian life, as it was. I wasn't seeing victory. I had so many problems from my abusive past, and I was angry and manipulative and controlling. And Dave and I argued a lot. And I just came to the end of myself, and I was like, "You have to do something". And, to be honest, at that point, I didn't care if I got a Baptist miracle, a Lutheran miracle, a Pentecostal miracle: I didn't care.

Erin Cluley: "Just take it".

Joyce Meyer: And I think, sometimes, we're just a little too prim and proper to... You know, for the Holy Spirit because he's like the wind. Bible says that. That he's like the wind, you never know. But you need the power of the Holy Spirit in your life. And I encourage everybody watching every day, when you pray, say, "God fill me afresh with the Holy Spirit". We need to be full of the Holy Spirit. And you read acts 1:8, which is still a great scripture. And a good point to make about that is he said... He didn't say, "You will do witnessing". He said, "When the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you will be my witnesses". And the interesting thing for me was, I was on the evangelism team at my church, and we went out once a week with a group of people and knocked on doors and told people about Jesus. But I didn't have the power in my life to be a witness, in my everyday life. I could do witnessing...

Erin Cluley: That's really good.

Joyce Meyer: As a job.

Ginger Stache: Right.

Joyce Meyer: But I couldn't be a witness because I didn't have the power of the Holy Spirit in my life to even help me control my temper.

Ginger Stache: Yeah, that's so good. We could be more fully equipped to do what God asks us to do.

Erin Cluley: He is fully consuming. Like the way that you described that I just keep picturing like, if you're filled with something, that he's inside of you, he propels you forward.

Joyce Meyer: Right.

Erin Cluley: And it gives you that push you need to do whatever it is that he's calling you to do. And if you aren't inviting that in then you're missing that. You don't have that umph.

Ginger Stache: Well, one of the questions that a lot of people have is: "Practically, what are those benefits? Should I feel something? Should I see something? You know, how does it work"? So, we're gonna listen to a short teaching, a little clip from Joyce, when she talks about the power of the Holy Spirit and some of those benefits that you can see in your life.

Joyce: Well, Philippians 2:12-13 bring out something that I love. Paul said, "Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] In my presence but much more because I'm absent", now, listen to this, "Work out", not "Work for" because salvation is a gift, "Work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation". So, what does it mean to have completed salvation? It means that you are to work with the Holy Spirit to work out what God has worked in. See, when you're born again in your spirit, everything is just made wonderful. You have all the Fruit of the Spirit: you're patient, you're kind, you're loving. I mean, everything is good. But it's gotta get through your soul. The mind's gotta be renewed. The emotions can't control you anymore. Your will has to be turned over to the will of God. And then eventually, people in the world who desperately need Jesus can see Jesus through you. But you've gotta work. You've gotta let this process be worked out with the Holy Spirit.

How many of you feel like God's dealing with you about something all the time? Well, he is, and thank God for it. Thank God that he cares enough about you not to leave you alone. I pray, "God don't leave me alone. Just bug me as much as you want to because I wanna be like you. I don't wanna be left alone and just be a mess". The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. He guides us into all truth. And you know, I love the fact that the Holy Spirit healed me from the abuse in my childhood. I didn't have the money to go to a counselor. Counseling wasn't that popular back when I was having a problem. And I'm not against going for counseling. I think God uses that and I think it can be wonderful. But sometimes, if you're having a problem, and you go to a friend, they don't really fully understand where you're at right now, and they may tell you to do something that you're really not ready for yet. The Holy Spirit knows exactly when to deal with you about what.

I think it was Henry Ford who, somebody in one of his car factories was having a problem with some of their equipment and they called him to come in and he was there about five minutes and had it fixed. And he left and sent him a bill for $10,000. And they were upset, "You were only here five minutes. All you did was tinker around a little bit, and you sent a bill for $10,000". He said, "The $10,000 bill wasn't for me tinkering, it was for knowing where to tinker". And see, the Holy Spirit knows where to tinker and what to leave alone. A woman came to me for counseling, and she had just been saved, just maybe, say like, the Sunday before. And in the process of talking with her, I found out from the conversation that she was living with her boyfriend. And so, I'm thinking while she's talking, "Well, I'm gonna need to tell her that she's gotta get out of that relationship". And the Holy Spirit said, "No, you're not gonna tell her that. I'll tell her when she's ready". See. If I would have told her that right then, she wouldn't have been ready for it, and it might have caused her to turn her back on the whole thing and not go forward. We're always ready to fix everybody right away. And they're not always ready to be fixed.

Ginger Stache: I love that so much. That the Holy Spirit gives us what we don't know, and helps us not to do the wrong things, to do the right things. But your question was such a good one: "Are you willing to let the Holy Spirit tinker with you"?

Joyce Meyer: Yeah.

Ginger Stache: You know?