Joyce Meyer - Broken Crayons Still Color with Toni Collier
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Ginger Stache: Hi, everyone. We are so glad that you are here to Talk It Out with us today because, first of all, we've been finding several wonderful things that we all have in common. And we have a special guest with us, Toni Collier.
Toni Collier: Heyyy! I made it!
Ginger Stache: We are so glad! You probably know Toni from a lot of different places. She's an author. Her ministry called, "Broken crayons still color," her podcast, her husband, pastor Sam Collier, two wonderful kiddos.
Toni Collier: Oh, you know, hanging out, boppin' around.
Ginger Stache: Yeah, so many other things. Tell us, just as we get started, because I love that concept of broken crayons still color.
Toni Collier: Yeah...
Ginger Stache: Tell us a little bit about, what brought that on for you and what was it in your life that you're like, "I really need to share this message".
Toni Collier: Yeah. Well, you know, we don't have 5 hours on this show to unpack all of the brokenness that is my life... Okay? But it came out of brokenness. You know, oftentimes, the things that God calls us to are the things that he had to call us through, right. Like, we had to go through this season to get on the other side of spreading hope. And that's what it's been like for me. It's been processing through divorce, and being a single mom, and sexual trauma in my life, and addiction, and church hurt even. And getting on the other side and really doubting like, "Okay, God can't use all this". Like, I mean, he's a miracle worker, but not like a miracle, miracle worker. Because that's what was needed in my life, right? Like, I had gone through all the stuff, and I was at rock bottom. And I was just like, "You know, I'mma settle. Let me just get a regular job, okay? And be grateful for what I got". And the Lord's just like, "I have more. I have more. Like, I do my best work in the broken places". And so, as I went down this journey of doing that in my own life and figuring out what it looked like to believe in myself again, and not necessarily in my gifts and talents, but the God that's in me, I think from that place, I've been able to tell women all over the world, like, "Sis, no, for real". Like, if he can do it through me, and I'm a pretty wild cookie. Okay? Stuff is real jacked up over here. No, he really can do it through you too. And that's broken crayons still color that God can take all the brokenness in your life and create beauty from it. So, yeah.
Ginger Stache: I love that.
Toni Collier: You know.
Erin Cluley: She's the best. Just like, your personality is so fun.
Toni Collier: Thanks!
Erin Cluley: I just love it.
Toni Collier: I just wake up just like this. And my family hates it. They're just like, "You need to go back to sleep, okay"?
Ginger Stache: Except for the eyelashes, because, you know, we all got the eyelashes put on.
Toni Collier: Do you see them?
Erin Cluley: Yes, we do see them.
Toni Collier: I do not wake up like this, let me tell you that.
Ginger Stache: They are fabulous!
Toni Collier: These suckers are flapping around. The sweet makeup artist was like, "Do you want maybe, like, small, medium", I was, like, "Large, large will be good". So, that's how I wanna live my life, Ginger. I just wanna, I'm like, "Let's just show up and do it"!
Ginger Stache: Go big!
Toni Collier: Go big or go home.
Ginger Stache: Go big, yeah.
Jai Williams: When I first met toni, and i...
Toni Collier: Oooh... We were like, "We're best friends". It's like, "Ooh".
Jai Williams: But like, I would have never known, because I met her and, like, right around, like, I was just coming out of, like, the divorce and, like, right in the middle of it or whatever. And not knowing what toni had gone through and haven't seen the light that she was, just how we connected. So, we were loud, goofy...
Toni Collier: We went in.
Jai Williams: We went all the way. We were on ten from day one.
Toni Collier: From the top to the bottom. To the bottom.
Jai Williams: But then, like, digging deeper and hearing her story gave me so much hope, even more so, like, because I was in a place where I was slowly coming out of like that, like anger, frustration of that major brokenness of my family, and the disruption that that was, which was okay to go to that process. But to see her on the other side being able to be so very joyful and hopeful and back in ministry, back, you know, full force like in it. And just seeing that, it just gave me so much hope. So, thank you for that. Seriously, thank you.
Toni Collier: I love you raw.
Jai Williams: She's my girl, though. Like, she's my girl now. But like, just having that, hearing her story more just gave me hope to say like, "Okay, eventually I won't be in the sad space that I was in".
Ginger Stache: That's what it's all about, isn't it?
Toni Collier: Yeah.
Ginger Stache: I mean, you say one of your most important things is to share that hope with people.
Toni Collier: Yeah, 100%. I just think, I, literally, was on a podcast the other day and they asked like this, like, super deep question at the end. It's always a super deep question at the end. And she's just like, "What would you look back and tell like, your younger self"? And, you know, typically, I would say like this inspirational thing, like, "God is kind," and he is like, right? But I think I would tell my younger self, like, "It'll be worth it". Like, "The pain will be worth it". Not like, "Oh, girl, you're gonna make it through it and it's just gonna be all good". But like, no. Like, "You're gonna walk through some pain. And it's gonna be post the painful things that happened to you". Like, "On the healing journey you're gonna walk through some pain".
Ginger Stache: Right, it's still gonna hurt.
Toni Collier: "It's gonna hurt. Pain, linear, healing is not linear and it's extremely painful, but it's so worth it". And I made a video afterwards, and I was like, "I gotta capture this," because I need to be reminded that the pain was worth it and that I would seriously go through it again. Like, not even kidding at all. I would suffer through divorce. I would go through an abusive marriage. I'd go to that church that will crush my spirit and try to rob my faith. I would go through it again because God is so much bigger to me, now. And I could go through anything. Like, let's just like,God forbid, but I could probably be hit by a truck. Like, you know what I'm sayin', like...
Jai Williams: Toni, just...
Ginger Stache: What a random thing to choose.
Jai Williams: Toni, cut it out.
Toni Collier: But that's how much faith I have.
Jai Williams: Cut it out.
Toni Collier: That, like, I could go through...
Jai Williams: Cut it out.
Toni Collier: One of the hardest things in my life, and come, I believe it! But it's because I've been through it. And I think that's what we need as believers, right? Like, I just think we need to know that, like, if God doesn't move the mountain, he'll give you the strength to cline it, like to climb it. To have capacity to overcome it. And so, yeah, I'm like, "Come on, let's go. What you got enemy"?
Jai Williams: Like, and that's funny you say that because I have a tattoo like, that was the only one that I had 'cause I was never the type of person that would get a man's name on me or anything like that.
Toni Collier: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No shame, no shame, if you got pookie tattoo right here. There's no shame.
Jai Williams: Definitely, there's no, because he got my name tattooed on him. And I was like, "Ha, ha, ha"!
Toni Collier: Oh, good Lord. That's bad.
Jai Williams: And I just got his initial. Right, I got his first initial. But I didn't think it was gonna turn out like this, but it was a wise choice, you know? And then, I put my daughter's initial right beside it. And it turned out to be: it, i-t, you know? So, I've had "It" on my wrist for a very, very long time, you know, as a representation, like, "They're all I need. That's it," you know? But then, when that happened, I had other letters I wanted to put in front of it, like... You know?! Like, that I'm like, "Argh"! You know, like, "What do I do with this tattoo? Do I cover it up? What do I do"? But that's literally, like, I don't know if you can see it.
Toni Collier: That's it, right there.
Jai Williams: Like, I put, "It was all worth it".
Erin Cluley: Oh.
Toni Collier: Ooh!
Jai Williams: I added, "Was all worth it," at the end.
Toni Collier: Stop it.
Jai Williams: So, like, everything...
Ginger Stache: That's so great. I love that.
Jai Williams: I added to it because it's like, "I'm not gonna try to delete what it was. Because what it was, was a huge part of who I am. And it was all worth it. It was all a part of the making of me. And I try to make that..."
Toni Collier: Oh, that's good.
Jai Williams: Like, a part of everything. Everything that I don't understand. Everything that hurts me, everything that was unfair. I still go, like, and I say, "At some point it'll all be worth it. It'll make sense in the end".
Toni Collier: I didn't know how that story was gonna turn out. I'll be honest with you: I got a little nervous. I was like, "Lord, what's she gonna do? She gonna make a little butterfly over there? Like, what's it gonna be"? But I love that.
Ginger Stache: It's great.
Jai Williams: It was all worth it at the end. And God told me to do that.
Toni Collier: I love that.
Jai Williams: Yeah.
Ginger Stache: Well, here's what we're gonna do.
Toni Collier: Tell us, Ginger.
Ginger Stache: We're gonna start with Joyce. She's gonna do a little teaching for us talking about the brokenness in our lives and what God can do with our broken pieces. And then, we're gonna come back and we're gonna hear more specifics about tonI's story, and bring you that hope that you're really looking for.
Joyce Meyer:. Alright, Jeremiah 30:17. This is such a great scripture, "For I will restore health to you, and I will heal your wounds, says the Lord, because they", you know, let's stop for a minute and talk about they. It is amazing how much value we put on what they think, and what they say, and what they do. And one day several years ago, I got to thinking, "Who are they"? We let them run our life, and we don't even know who they are. "They have called you an outcast". It doesn't matter what they call you, it's what God calls you that matters. "Saying, 'this is Zion, who no one seeks after and for whom no one cares'". I love Psalm 27:10, "Even though my mother and father have forsaken me, the Lord will take me up [and adopt me as his own child]". Hallelujah. Acts 9:34, "And Peter said to him, 'aeneas, Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [now] makes you whole'". I love the little amplification that the Amplified Bible puts in places like this. He does it, "Now". And I wanna say to you tonight the Lord Jesus Christ "Now" makes you whole. You don't have to go home full of holes bleeding anymore. Tonight, you can make a decision to receive God's love, and healing, and restoration, and you can go home whole. You don't have to stay parked at the point of your pain and ruin the rest of your life.
Ginger Stache:. I love that so much because that encouragement just to know, because it feels like "I'm never gonna get out of this hole, I'm never gonna get out of this spot". To know that God not only can, but he will, and that he can do it now. I mean, there's always a process of healing that we have to walk through, and changes that we have to make, and decisions that are hard. And so, it's an ongoing process. But God is big enough, right now, to give you what you need. So, I wanna ask you about some of the scriptures that she shared because they're so great. And this is one of my favorites, Psalm 27:10: "For my father and my mother have forsaken me, but the Lord will take me in". And what do you guys think when you hear that?
Toni Collier: Oh, my God, erin, tell us what you think, girl.
Erin Cluley: There's a lot of pressure, toni.
Toni Collier: Well, no problem. I just dropped it on you, you know.
Erin Cluley: You did. I think that there's such, okay, for example, it says, "Father and mother," but that almost makes me think of anybody. Like, you could just be: "You're forsaken," but he takes you in. To be taken in, to me, is just like, "Let me bring you, erin, to my chest and I'm gonna hold you right there".
Ginger Stache: The take you in, part, yeah.
Erin Cluley: Yeah, I think those are the words that stand out to me the most because that is an act that, like he has gone out of his way. "I am somewhere that is hurting or broken or whatever it is, and he is choosing to take me from that position to his chest and just love me". So, yeah, I think, I mean, that's what you do in your brokenness, is take your pieces and he pulls you in.
Toni Collier: Oh, that's so special. Okay, when I think about, first of all, the whole Psalm 27, like, that whole situation is so very powerful. There's a scripture in there. I think it's Psalm 27:4 where they're talking about this idea of like, where wars are raging around me, and my enemies and foes, they crumble, and they fall. And I'm thinking about like, the wars that I've been through, right? Like, the things that have been happening around me, whether it be from church hurt and spiritual manipulation, whether it was a toxic and abusive marriage, even poverty in some ways. Like, when I think about all the wars raging around me, for me, I want relief. I'm like, "Excuse me, daddy, God, if you can heliPad me out of this situation, that would be really great". But the writer doesn't ask for that. Instead of this idea of like, maybe, "Take me away from the pain," he's more so saying, "The one thing that I want from the Lord is to dwell in the house of the Lord". The one thing that I want is what you said, erin, it's that closeness. It's just like, "Bring me in". "You don't have to take me out. Like, you don't have to, I can see everything. But I wanna know that you're with me". And the truth is, he's a God of withness, isn't he? Like, again, sometimes, he moves the mountain out of the way, and you're just bopping around like a teletubby. You know what I'm saying? Other times, he'll just be like, "I'm holding your hand, and we're gonna climb this together. I'm gonna give you the strength to do it. And even when you don't have the strength, where your strength runs out, my strength begins". And I just, I don't, that's what I love so much about the Psalms. So, because it's not all cute, it's like...
Ginger Stache: No, it's real.
Toni Collier: I been flooding my bed with tears and my couch is all mildewed from all the snot. But God is with me, even in the valley. And I think, I just, I think that's where the good stuff happens. That's what I just think.
Erin Cluley: I agree.
Ginger Stache: It says that real stuff, like, take my enemies head and put it on a stick. The stuff that we wanna pray for. That we think, "I can't pray for that".
Toni Collier: You can.
Ginger Stache: But...
Jai Williams: David was a man after his own heart.
Ginger Stache: Exactly. God knows all those thoughts in the back of our head that we don't wanna say out loud. But he does what he knows is best. So, we just really give him our hearts in prayer. So, I love that so much.
Jai Williams: Yeah, super special. I love, like you said, erin, like, "The take me in". There's a surrender to that, that I love. It's like, it's not, and it's also like an understanding that if you give him permission, that's what I'm big on, right now, is giving God permission to do what he wants to do. And also, Holy Spirit. Like, "Holy Spirit, do what you wanna do," like, and "Holy Spirit also, get my angels, like, in place".
Toni Collier: "The ones encamped around me, call them on out".
Jai Williams: "The ones that get, activate". "Holy Spirit activate, Holy Spirit activate". That's, literally, what I'm doing. So, like, there's a piece of surrender once you communicate, "My father's left me, my mother's", and I've actually had that, you know, that season before where I was estranged from my family, a little bit, from the church that I was in for a while. Thank God, we're not there now, you know. But like, all of the things that I've gone through in my life, and I honestly, here's the thing, too. When I was younger, even like, in my twenties, I didn't, I kinda thought that I hadn't gone through a lot. And I almost felt like, I was...
Ginger Stache: Like, you needed a testimony.
Jai Williams: Yeah, like...
Toni Collier: Oh, gosh. You wanted your cardboard, your cardboard testimony.
Jai Williams: Yeah, I was like, "I didn't come from nothin' real bad," you know? So, it's like, but then, now, I'm like, "Why would I even think like that"? So, if you haven't gone through a lot, just be thankful and be happy where you are right now. But when you do go through something, it does give you a different kind of testimony. But the trials that go with it, that surrender, that you have to have to be able to say like, "Oh", it just, because I know what that feels like to feel like, "Everybody's left me". And you just don't have anything. And the fact that he can take you in, that...
Toni Collier: And bottle up every single one of your tears. You ever think about that, girls?
Erin Cluley: That's a lot.
Toni Collier: I cannot wait to have a little loft in heaven over the ocean of my tears that I've cried. Because there've been so many. But God's been collecting them. And he, I mean, like every single one.
Jai Williams: I don't want mine.
Toni Collier: You don't want yours. I don't why I'm like that but I'm like, "I wanna see it, Lord".
Ginger Stache: I like the idea of the little loft though. Like, it's one of those bungalows in the ocean over, like...
Toni Collier: I'm like in a hammock, and I'm just like, swinging over it, kind of, but not really. So, anyways.
Ginger Stache: I love that.
Toni Collier: I just, I love to see. And I kinda love what you said too, jai, because I talk about this all the time. It's the pain comparison trap, and I feel like we just do that. It's either like, "Oh, my goodness, I've not gone through anything, so let me", or "I've not gone through as much as she has. She's been through a whole divorce. I just went through a bad breakup with my boyfriend. Like, let me just be quiet". And I think that's such a scheme of the enemy to get us to hide. To get us to, "Okay, let me not talk about my stuff". Or we get a little prideful out here and we be like, "Whew, she a little, I'mma definitely get to heaven, but I don't know about her over there now". You know? I mean, that's just such a scheme of the enemy to put us in this pain comparison trap where shame festers or pride festers, and then we don't get to the healing and wholeness that is called to us, right, for our own story.
Jai Williams: Exactly. And I think that's cool because you think about the different sizes of crayons. I used to get like, the big box of crayons that had the sharpener on the back.
Erin Cluley: Oh, those are the fancy ones.
Jai Williams: They still make those?
Erin Cluley: They do.
Toni Collier: Oh, yeah, they do.
Ginger Stache: The whole rainbow of colors, yeah.
Jai Williams: With the sharpener on the back?
Erin Cluley: Yeah, we just got one.
Jai Williams: I mean, my kid, she's about to be 20.
Toni Collier: It's over, I know. Yeah, well, I've got this eight-year-old and she's got so many crayons.
Jai Williams: But I remember like, if a crayon would, it doesn't matter how big or small the crayon breaks, it doesn't disqualify the pigmentation of the color. You know what I mean?
Toni Collier: 100% we still coloring.
Jai Williams: We still, that's what I love about that whole concept of broken crayons still color, you know. But like, that whole pain comparison deal. Maybe you had a little tip of it...
Toni Collier: Uh-oh.
Jai Williams: That broke off.
Toni Collier: A small, little beep-beep.
Jai Williams: Small, little beep-beep.
Toni Collier: Or you had a...
Jai Williams: You got brock in half! You know, it still colors though.
Toni Collier: That's good. I never thought about that. I'm gonna steal that.
Jai Williams: Wow.
Toni Collier: That's gonna be on my Instagram.
Ginger Stache: Ya'll just sign it for her to be able to use it. Jai signs off on it. I think one of the things that's so beautiful to me is that he used your mother and father as the example. Because, to me, that's like the epitome. I know people are gonna forsake us, and people are gonna hurt us. But when your mother, you know, the person who gave you birth, when your father, the people who are supposed to love you the most, so using that as an example...
Toni Collier: That's good.
Ginger Stache: Like you said, means there is nobody that is going to love you like God does. People are gonna hurt you in different ways, but God is gonna take you in. And I love that so much.
Erin Cluley: An intensity of his love for you.
Ginger Stache: Yeah, exactly. So, I think of your story and some of the things that you had happen, and some of the people who forsook you, and some of the things that you walked through. Tell us a little bit about.
Toni Collier: Yeah, man, I think, you know, in counseling, we say a lot, like, "Darkness entered into my story". Like that's the crevices of what happened. I mean, when I was super young in elementary, like, my dad was very verbally abusive. He was an alcoholic. God saved him from alcoholism, which was just so crazy. And we've got so much redemption in our story, now. But just being a little girl and hearing harsh words all the time, like, that's darkness piercing my heart, thinking that, you know, when I'm now, 19, and I got this man who's cursing me out, I'm like, "Oh, that's love, though," because that's how my dad, I mean, this is just how we talk to each other. And then, I think about my mom. She got incredibly sick. She had a massive stroke when I was just a little girl, at eight, I became her caregiver. And so, what that meant was there wasn't a lot of protection for me, right? Like, I was taking care of my mom, putting the little medicine in the tablets.
Ginger Stache: You had to grow up fast.
Toni Collier: I grew up super-fast. And there was a lot of my childhood that I missed out on. And unfortunately, the very things that we use to survive trauma, as kids, manifest themselves as the things that break us as adults. And so, grew up way too fast, lost my virginity at 13, started drinking to numb the pain, doing drugs to numb the pain. Little boys entered into the story, okay. And all throughout, like, my teenage years and even putting myself through college, like, I essentially was numbing. I was kind of living this double life of going to college, being the cheerleader, doing all this stuff, and just being straight reckless because I needed something to numb the pain, something, a quick fix. And then, ended up getting married at 19 and move in with a guy that I only knew for three months because daddy issues, you know? And then getting saved at 21 and God kind of like starting to righteously convict me. Like, "You have made all the choices for your life". Like, "Are you gonna let me"? And even then, being like, a fan of God and not a follower, goin' to church high, acting like everything's okay, pretending that it's all good, doing ministry, drunk, alcohol coming in, hung over.
Ginger Stache: I love what you said though, being a fan and not a follower. How many people can relate to that?
Toni Collier: Because what happens is the church focuses a lot on salvation, which is amazing. I grew up Catholic. We didn't really have salvation. You're just kind of bopping your way through the whole thing. But we don't really talk about sanctification, about what it looks like after you say, "Yes". And the truth is, with 25 years of trauma, and mess, and drugs, and alcohol, like after I say, "Yes" to Jesus, I was like, "Well, what's next? Do I stay the same"? And it's like, "No, the love of Christ is supposed to change you". But many of us don't know how to change. We don't know how to become more holy, more sanctified.
Ginger Stache: "What about all these broken pieces"?
Toni Collier: "What about all these broken pieces? What about the fact that I kinda wanna get drunk a little bit? I just wanna get, I need to numb some pain here. What do I do with that"? And that's kinda been my story these last ten years is becoming a follower and not just a fan. And that's been hard. Let me just say that. I don't know about you guys. That's been hard, mkay? But it's been great.
Erin Cluley: When you accepted Jesus...
Toni Collier: Yeah.
Erin Cluley: Did you feel immediately like, "Okay, I'm gonna change everything. And let's just, I'm gonna be this holy lady"? Or was it like, a slow process of...?
Toni Collier: Oh, let me tell you, it was a slow drip. But, at first, and for many of us, when we first get saved, we're like, "I'mma 'bout to spread out holy oil all over everybody".
Erin Cluley: "Do you know him"? "Do you know him"?
Toni Collier: "I'm Joyce Meyer," okay, "And I'm about to crush it," you know? And that's what it was at first. And then, what happens is, and the enemy knows this. When we don't have discipleship, when we aren't connected to a body, when we don't have guardrails in our lives, we get on this mountaintop high salvation, "Jesus is my everything". And then, the enemy starts to slowly chip and remind you, "Oh, but you've got that piece of your story that's not been healed". "Oh, you're going to get triggered in this area". "Oh, you're gonna have stress and anxiety, you're gonna want to run back to your idols and the things that you put in place of God before".
Ginger Stache: Or something bad happens and you think, "None of this is real. It didn't work". "Why is this still happening"?
Toni Collier: I'm like, "What are y'all even talkin' about? Y'all said if I tithe that $100 that one time, that it was about to get, it was about to be lit. But, you know, that's the tension with the church. We've gotta be careful not to preach prosperity, but to preach surrender", you know? And that's kind of been the slow churning, "Okay, this isn't just like the care bear land". This is a little different. This is work. This is intentionality. This is transitioning friends and community that lead to sin and temptation. This is looking at God every day and saying, "Jesus, I give everything and everyone to you".
Ginger Stache: Yeah.
Toni Collier: Like, "Take over my life 'cause you're better at it". Like, "Help me".
Ginger Stache: So much better.
Toni Collier: So much better. And that's been the journey. And that's what I talk to people about all the time, like, the healing and wholeness journey, you know?
Ginger Stache: Yeah, well, let's go back to Joyce again. She's gonna talk about how there's so much more to our stories than we ever realize. When we think we're stuck in that broken place, there's a lot more coming. So, let's see what she has to say.
Joyce Meyer: Some of you have had your life in park for way too long, and it's time to get it out of park, put it in gear, and put Jesus in the driver's seat, and get going. We're going to start with Genesis 11 and verse 32. "And Terah took Abram his son, lot the son of haran, his grandson, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, her son Abram's wife, and they went forth together to go from Ur of the Chaldees into the land of Canaan, but". Now, you know, that word always creates a problem, always. You can see that they started out for somewhere, but when they came to haran, they settled there. They settled. I've come to kind of despise that word because I think far too many people settle. They settle for a life that's so much less than what Jesus wants to give them. They settle for staying at a job that they can't stand just because they'll make a few more dollars there than they would if they went and did what they really loved. They have a dream for their life, they have a goal, and it gets a little tough, it gets a little hard, and so they settle. And how many women even settle for a guy that they know is not really right, but they're just kind of desperate and afraid they'll never have anybody, so they get themselves into another mess that lasts for a lifetime because they didn't want to wait for the right thing? And I think it's time that we stop settling and we start going all the way through with God, all the way through to the place where we start out to go when we get started. Wouldn't it be kind of foolish if we started this conference, and halfway through decided, "Well, it's been enough. We've worked hard enough this weekend. We're just going to settle right here and not finish the rest of it". You'd all think we were about half crazy, but yet people do that all the time in their lives. And then verse 32 says, and this is the part that I think is really important, "And Terah lived 205 years, and Terah died in haran". So actually, here's the thing that I've learned. He started out to go to Canaan, but he settled in haran, and he died where he settled. He died where he settled. Now, you might keep breathing, but if you settle for less than what's really in your heart, there's going to be something in you that's going to die. Something in your soul is going to sour and give up because all of us, if you're Christian, God has put a desire in you to not be mediocre, to be all you can be, to be excellent, and to do something worth doing other than just walking around the planet, and just breathing, and taking up space, amen?
Toni Collier: Amen.
Ginger Stache: So, what do you guys wanna talk about first?
Erin Cluley: I know, I got like, a list of five things.
Ginger Stache: I know. Do you wanna talk about parking in the place of your pain? Or do you wanna talk about settling? Because they're both such big topics.
Toni Collier: She slapped us in the face with settling, I dunno.
Erin Cluley: Because the first thing that I thought of when she said that was, "That is just", like when I settle, it's really my desire to control a situation because I don't actually think God's, I trust him to take care of you all. Like, he's got you. You're good. I'm not entirely sure that he's fully capable of my story and plan. So, if I just go ahead and take care of it and just settle here, then that's probably safer than if I keep on trusting him. But that's a control thing.
Toni Collier: Erin, remember that...
Erin Cluley: She said it.
Toni Collier: Well, that's what I'm trying to say...
Erin Cluley: It was not me.
Toni Collier: I don't really like it. I don't wanna talk about it.
Erin Cluley: It's uncomfortable.
Ginger Stache: "I don't wanna talk about that anymore".
Toni Collier: Well, I don't wanna talk about it and what's unfortunate, is I feel very, presently convicted right now because of what we talked about off camera just about 30 minutes ago. Well, I was telling everybody that the Lord had put this new concept into my brain to kind of build these healing community groups. And I've been procrastinating out of fear. I know what it is. I can name it. I'm like, "I know myself, what you talkin' about"? I'm like, "No, I could just be on Talk It Out". Like, I can just go home and live my life, and go do these little gigs that God's given me the opportunity to preach at and teach at. "I don't need to do that. It's too much risk". And I just feel like the Holy Spirit's just like, "I'm gonna bring you on, Talk It Out, and then I'm gonna convict you again through sweet joyce".
Toni Collier: Okay. But I could take that as like, "Oh gosh, like, God is really like coming for me, right now". Or I could say, "God is so kind, that he has said, 'no, no, no, I've chosen you. I want you to do this. I've called you to do this, Toni. And I'm gonna keep reminding you, and I'm gonna keep coming for you. I'm going to be the, you know, the player on the sidelines saying, 'put me in, put me in'. I know you don't have the strength to do it by yourself. And I'm reminding you that I'm on the sidelines of your life, calling you to it, and willing to bring you through it. So, tap me in'".
Ginger Stache: Yeah, the risk is the adventure.
Jai Williams: Yeah.
Ginger Stache: And I know it hurts. And it, you know, nobody likes risk. And nobody likes failure even far worse than that. But if you don't chance the risk, if you don't chance the failure, you're never gonna get to that next place. But the thing that pulls us all back, so often, is the failure from before.
Jai Williams: Oh, yeah.
Ginger Stache: You think, "What about the brokenness that I'm bringing in with me? Why do I think it will be different this time"?
Toni Collier: Oh, that's so good.
Ginger Stache: So, when we think we need to settle, like you said, Erin, it's so often because "This is the best thing for me. You know, God doesn't know as much as I do what's best for me". And so how do we get past that? How do we pull together all those failures and those broken things, and the things that people have done that have hurt us in our life and move on to the next thing?
Toni Collier: Yeah, I think the answer's found, first of all, in the Bible. Mmkay, surprise. But 2 Corinthians chapter 12, it just wrecks me every time it's the apostle Paul. He's writing the church in Corinth. And he's planted that church and it's great. It's like us, you know, when we first get saved, it's like, "Holy oil for everybody. I'm sprinkling it all over the place". And then they start to be human, right? Like, they're imperfect, and they start to make all these mistakes, and they start to get real prideful. And in chapter 12, verse 8, Paul is his most vulnerable self. I mean, like, usually he's like leading the charge in the church, but he really gets vulnerable. He starts talking about all of his brokenness, all that he's done for the Kingdom of God. He's like, "I'm on these boats out here. I'm starving. Okay? I'm in and out of jail. This is crazy"? And he's like, "I could be boastful about that," like, "Look at me, God's appointed me". He's like, "Put me on the stage, he's giving me some Instagram followers". Like, "He's doing the thing," you know? And he says, "But instead, I've got this thorn in my side. I've got this weakness. I've got this baggage in my story". And I've asked God, like, "Homey, if you could take it away, that'd be really great, because I could do more for you. I could do more for your kingdom if I didn't have all this baggage". And then, God responds to Paul, and Paul's sharing this story from his perspective of teaching, but he's bringing these people in to see how God would respond to him, who they view as a leader, but how he's also responding to all of us. And he says that God says to me, "No, Paul, I'm not gonna take this thorn out of your side because my grace is sufficient for you, and my power. So, the very thing you want, my power, my willingness to trudge forward, to go on, to pull you through the next level, the mountains you wanna climb, it's made perfect in your weakness". And it's like this epiphany of, "Okay, so what you're saying to me is my earthly, humanly", I don't know if that's a word. "Weakness is made perfect in the power of God". So, that means that success is not subject to my perfection. It's subject to my weakness and my surrender.
Ginger Stache: That's like a "Wow". I mean, it really is. That's like, "God, are you kidding me? You can take these things that are the worst things in me and somehow use them to do something that I never even imagined possible".
Toni Collier: And that's where he does his best work.
Erin Cluley: And it's so counterintuitive to how the world lives.
Toni Collier: Right.
Erin Cluley: I mean, "We need to be strong, and we do things because we're really, we're the best at them". So, to think that my weakness is what is actually gonna be used is mind-blowing.
Ginger Stache: Then we go back, this is such a messed up, twisted thought. Then we go back full circle, and we think, "Well, I don't have that testimony". I don't, you know...
Toni Collier: Then we're back to the pain comparison track, and we're like, "There's no way".
Ginger Stache: Exactly, then we're back to that, "I don't have anything for God to use". And then God says, "No, you know, I have put in you what you need and I'm God and you're not". So, all those different things that we think: "This is why it won't work". "This is why it won't work". "This is why God can't use me". "This is why I can't move forward". He can put every single one of those things down.
Jai Williams: And one of the things that I pray when I'm facing something that might feel a little intimidating or if I'm triggered to be like, "This could potentially feel like something that, that's happened before," I typically pray and ask God like, when you think of glasses, like that are shattered and broken, I tell God to "Give me fresh eyes for this so that I won't look at this situation through my brokenness".
Ginger Stache: Oh, that's good. Through your lens.
Jai Williams: "Give me fresh eyes. Give me fresh glasses, your perspective so that I can see clearly where this is, and give me wonder for it. Let me be excited, like I was the very first time I did it. You know, because it... And let me anticipate it being better than the last experience".
Ginger Stache: That's called hope, right?
Jai Williams: That's hope, yep. And so, a lot of times what we do is, once that thing that happened that made you hurt, that pain point, that disappointment, that failure, that betrayal that, you know, once that's happened, what it does is it shatters your vision, and you see everything through those lenses. You see relationships, you see opportunities, you see experiences through those lenses. And so, I literally pray, "God give me fresh eyes". Like, I remember when I moved back to st. Louis for Joyce Meyer Ministries, I was like, "God, I thought I'd never come back to st. Louis," like. And so, I said, "God, please give me fresh eyes for the city and help me to treat this city like I treat, like, when I go to l.A. Or when I go to some other city". And like, be a tourist, you know, get on the tmz bus, I don't know, like, you know? When you're a tourist. But I'm like, so even...
Ginger Stache: So, you went up in the arch.
Jai Williams: I've gone, I did. I've done it. I've gone up in the arch. I've done all of the touristy things. And I'm like, "I never did this". Like, "Wow". Even though I've lived here all of my life. So, that's how I try to approach now, new situations. Going back into the church world, going back, you know, like, it's things like that, that like, I have to ask God to give me a fresh perspective and restore the wonder. Because that's what adulthood does.
Toni Collier: It steals the wonder.
Jai Williams: It steals the wonder because of experiences. Because you have things that, you have a framework, now. When you're a kid, you're just...
Toni Collier: Boppin' around.
Jai Williams: Boppin' around, like a teletubby.
Toni Collier: Like a little teletubby.
Jai Williams: But now, that's why I'm only watching cartoons, for real. I'm only watching love stories. I'm only...
Toni Collier: I wanna be like a child again. I kinda am already, so.
Jai Williams: I mean, it's...
Toni Collier: That's good though.
Jai Williams: When you have built up such a wall, because so many things have happened in almost every area of my life, I'm speaking for myself. Relationally, friendship wise, ministry, business, every, it makes you just wanna be in a shell and be like, "I just don't wanna talk to anybody," you know? But in order, like to go back to the place where I had those inventions, and creativity, and hope, and excitement for life, I have to do some of the things that I did when I was a kid. So, if it's watching cartoons, and "Ninja turtles" and things like that...
Erin Cluley: Go, jetsons.
Jai Williams: Jetsons, yeah.
Toni Collier: Yeah, because I thought we were gonna be flying cars by now.
Jai Williams: Yeah, they lied to us. I don't wanna watch that.
Ginger Stache: You know, you struck my cord when you start talking about wonder. 'cause the thing there, is that bringing that wonder back into our life is not what only gives us hope, but it's what makes God big again. Because he is such a big God of wonder. And when you see all those things, the big things and the small things that he has, it changes your whole perspective.
Toni Collier: I love that.
Ginger Stache: And it's like, you light a little spark under the hope, and it starts to grow and gets bigger and bigger.
Erin Cluley: It feels like a fire. That's such a good way to say it.
Ginger Stache: Yeah, yeah.
Jai Williams: We gotta be careful. I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday, that he had this really cool opportunity for this really big artist that reached out to him, was like, "I wanna start this group". And there's, 'cause he picked me up from the airport. And I was like, "Yo, that is so dope, like". And he was like, "Well, I don't know if it's gonna happen though, because, you know, this person told me this before..." I was like, "Yo, like, you cannot do that. You gotta celebrate where it is now". He's like, "Well, I just don't wanna get my hopes up and be disappointed in it," you know. And I was like...
Toni Collier: God's like, "Get your hopes up".
Jai Williams: I was like "Get your hopes up". 'cause I was like, "What if this is the moment? What if this is..."?
Toni Collier: "Don't settle".
Jai Williams: Yeah, "What if this is the moment, this is the call that's gonna lead to the... And you missed out on the opp..." that's how I treat every date now. Like, I get excited. I dress up, you know.
Toni Collier: Get all cute.
Jai Williams: And I'm not saying, like, "This gonna be my husband". But like, I'm just like...
Toni Collier: We don't wanna get too crazy, now. Okay? "Put more energy into it, girls".
Jai Williams: "Pump the brakes, toots". You know? But I treat it as this could be the first date of my next love story.
Ginger Stache: Yeah.
Toni Collier: Get your hopes up, girls.
Jai Williams: Don't look through your brokenness.
Ginger Stache: Well, and hope is the thing that leads to greater faith. And more faith leads to greater hope. And so, it's so important to be able to say, you know, "It's okay to hope". We talk about we need faith: I think we know that, but we're afraid to hope. So, we're gonna check one last time in with Joyce and she's going to talk about where faith comes from and where we can find our hope. And in the very beginning of the ministry, she and Dave had a huge responsibility. And they were really counting on that mail to make this new fledgling ministry survive. So, they were putting their hope in the mail. Well, here's what she has to say about that.
Joyce Meyer: I kind of just, I was just like, "God, why don't you do something?! It would just, you wouldn't even have to get off the throne or anything, you could just glance in my direction. I mean, it wouldn't even take a lot of effort to just increase the mail a few pieces. Then I could be happy". Come on, now. Did you hear what I said? "God, if you would just increase the mail, then I could be happy". Well, my joy was in the mail. My peace was in the mail, my victory was in the mail. And I didn't even know that this scripture existed. And I heard the Spirit of God say to me, "I am teaching you that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". God has to teach us that it's not what he does for us, that is the most important. It's who he is in our life. And he's never going to go away. And as long as we have him, we have more than enough. And we need to trust God that no matter what, whether it feels good or it doesn't, whether it takes longer than I want it to, whether I understand or I don't, God is only one thing, and that is: God is good. He cannot be anything else. He loves you. He loves you unconditionally. He has nothing but a good plan for your life and my life. But we need to realize that he doesn't always give us what we want, but he always gives us what we need. And I know some of you, right now, maybe, if you were up here, you'd say, "Lady, I would like to slap you. There is no way that you are gonna tell me that what is going on in my life, right now, could ever possibly be good for me". Well, it won't be good for you if you keep having a bad attitude, and murmuring, and complaining, and blaming, and making excuses. But if you say, "Okay, God, I don't know what's going on, but I wanna learn. If I got myself in this mess, show me how I opened the door. If this is something you're doing in my life for some reason that I don't understand, then please, please, please help me not to run away from you". I mean, I've had to pray many times, "God, if you have to, tie me to the altar, but don't let me run away from you because I want to finish my course, and I wanna finish it with joy". Amen? So, if you go on and read this, which I didn't even know it was there at the time. It says so many beautiful things about how he didn't let their shoes get old and he didn't let their clothes wear out. And, you know, I had a lot of years like that where I didn't get anything new. But what I had kept lasting. And, you know, we don't like those times. But the truth is, is that when I look back now, and I see those years, when we had such financial need, God took care of us. We never had to pay a bill late. I always found what I needed for my kids, even though I had to go to garage sales to do it, most of the time. I lived in a lot of fear because I didn't know how to trust God. But God had, now, listen to me, God had to let me go through that in order to teach me how to trust him for finances. Because if I would not have gone through those six years, I remember specifically, I would go crazy trying to believe God for what we need today to run this ministry for one day.
Ginger Stache: I think everybody's got something they can relate to, similarly. You know, it wasn't the mail probably, but it was something in all of our lives that we put our faith in, our hope in, instead of God. And so, making that shift now, it changes how those broken pieces come back together. Because when I try to do a puzzle, it can end up looking like a Picasso mess, you know. But if God put something together, it becomes beautiful.
Erin Cluley: That's so true.
Ginger Stache: So, Toni, what are some of the things, with all of the different things that you've been through in your life?
Toni Collier: Whoo, child.
Ginger Stache: What are some of the things that you look back on and you're like, "Wow, I couldn't see anything good in that..."
Toni Collier: Oh, man.
Ginger Stache: But this is what God has taught me.
Toni Collier: You know, it's interesting because now I get to lead women through these kind of healing journeys, like 6 to 8 months or 6 weeks. Like, I just get to sit with random women like that. I mean, I don't even know. They're just from all these different places. And I remember one time we were doing this cohort, and we had maybe like 50-60 women in it. And on the first call that we do, we kind of like just open the floor for like, "Tell your story". Like, "What are you battling through? What's your biggest pain point right now"? And I remember there was a woman that's like, "Well, I'm walking through divorce right now and it's just been so hard, and I feel so lonely. And I know I'm not alone, but I just feel super lonely". And then we and another woman, she's like, "Well, I'm battling through an eating disorder, right now". And, you know, "The world just cares so much about how you look that I just, I don't feel like I'm ever enough". And then we have this other woman, she's just talking about, well, you know, like, "I'm kind of deconstructing slash reconstructing, right now. Like, I don't, I might love the church, but I don't. And it's just really hard". And I'm sitting there, and I message one of our team members on the side and I said, "You know, what's crazy is I can relate to every single one of those women because I've been through divorce, and I've battled with bulimia, an eating disorder, and I've walked through church hurt". And I'm like, just tearing up because I'm like, "He just wastes nothing". God! I mean, I remember being on like, the bottom of my stairs, like, pleading with God, like, "Bro, you're gonna have to let up. Like, all of this? Sexual abuse and trauma, divorce, church hurt, addiction, eating disorder, parentified child syndrome", people ain't even heard of that, you know. Like, "Why? Why would you allow all of this darkness to enter into my story"? And he's like, "Because I've got 50 women that I need you to be able to connect with. I need you to be able to look at them and say, 'me too. Me too. I know that pain. I know what you've been through. I know that it hurts. I know that you're pleading with him. I know that you're trying not to give up your faith. But hold on'".
Erin Cluley: That's so good.
Toni Collier: "'because he's gonna do it'". And I'm like, every day, I'm just like, "I'd do it again". I'd do it again. To be able to be like a living, like, testimony, a living, breathing, walking, like, light for some people, who's like, "All right, okay, he can do it. He actually can do it, like, there's living proof here". And I think that's just how I'm living my life. Anything that comes my way, any kinda rando scares. I had a scare in the emergency room last week. I was like, "Well, that was really weird". Just like in so much excruciating pain. I'm like, "Okay, there's probably gonna be someone that's in excruciating pain that's gonna come around my path", and they're gonna be like, "What'd you do? I mean, I don't know what to do. I'm in all this pain. My body's hurting, my ailments are hurting". "I just cry out to the Lord, 'Lord, come'". James 4:7, "Yell a loud no to the enemy watch him flee. Whisper quiet yes to God, he'll be there in no time". "That's it. I just was yelling, okay"? "No, enemy"! You know, in my car, in the parking lot at Starbucks. Like, excruciating pain, I'm like, "No, enemy". I know people are looking at me like I'm crazy, but I'm like, "I know what to do, now". And I know how to teach someone else how to do it. And I think that's just it.
Ginger Stache: That's huge.
Erin Cluley: I love what you're saying because I've been thinking about this for a little bit. And what you said, makes me think, there's so much healing, not only for you to share your story for other people to not feel alone, but I think there's something really important about us sharing our own story for ourselves.
Toni Collier: Oh, yeah.
Erin Cluley: Because what that does is it breaks something inside of us. It breaks that shame and guilt. And those pieces that were so broken start to heal as we share this really hard thing that we went through. And I shared some stuff yesterday, and I woke up this morning feeling really like a vulnerable hangover. Yeah, I don't... "What was I thinking to tell everybody that"? And I had to fight through that today. And thought, "No, that is my story". And those really broken pieces that I walked through, and I watched God heal and put back together, that's not a secret for me to keep because that will keep me in that place of being able to go back to it and relive that hurt. But if I can that story and help somebody else feel not so alone, that only helps, that helps them and it gives me a reminder of: God is good.
Ginger Stache: And it steals the power from the enemy.
Erin Cluley: It does.
Toni Collier: That's really great.
Erin Cluley: And we're all broken. I mean, every person, everywhere. All, the whole entire world, we're all a bunch of broken people.
Toni Collier: Broken people
Erin Cluley: So, to know that it's okay to admit that you're broken, and you don't have to pretend that you're somebody else, or that you've got yourself together, I think it really is, really important. People need to know they're not alone.
Ginger Stache: We're just all broken in a lot of different ways.
Toni Collier: We're just all crunchy.
Ginger Stache: Exactly.
Toni Collier: It's all so crunchy.
Ginger Stache: So, messed up, but...
Jai Williams: Jesus did it. Like, Jesus showed everything. Like, on the cross...
Toni Collier: Listen one of the most powerful scriptures, I've been trying to like, just keep it in the back of my mind since Easter, okay? But when he's just like, "Eli eli lama sabachthani. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me"? And I'm sitting here like, "The Son of God is like, 'Lord,'" the weight of all this sin, in that moment, this is, "Surely you have left me".
Jai Williams: "You have left me".
Toni Collier: You know. And it's like, how many times have we believed that God has forsaken us because of how much pain we're in? When really, he's like, "Oh, just wait. I've got eden for you. I've got redemption for you. I've got restoration for you. It's beautiful".
Ginger Stache: I think that's a great place to end because that is where the hope comes from. And you're the hope lady. You know, you love...
Toni Collier: I'm a hope coach. Somebody called me that the other day, and I'm like, "I'm stealing that. I'm a hope coach. I'm down for that".
Ginger Stache: We need that thing to hold onto, you know. And the fact that if Jesus Christ, himself, could ask that question, and to God it wasn't sin, because Jesus was without sin. God knew the weight of what was on him. God knew his heart. God knew all of these things that we think, "I can't share that with God". And there's freedom in that because God's big enough to handle it. And the hope is in, exactly what you just said, that no matter where you are, right now, no matter what your broken pieces may look like, crumbled on the floor, or where you've parked for a long time, and you're afraid to take that risk to move forward, God is looking at you, right now, and he's saying, "I see you. I know you. I've put good things in you, and I'm gonna move forward with you. So, here's my hand, reach out and take it". So, we just pray that you have that hope, right now, in Jesus' name. And that one day you can share with all of us and with all your friends those things that God has done for you that will then inspire and encourage someone else. So, ladies, thank you so much.
Toni Collier: Thanks, Ginger.
Ginger Stache: It's been so great. We do have a free resource for you. We love offering you the Word of God. So, if you wanna get this. It is called, "No parking at any time," and it is an absolutely free audio digital download. So, you can go to joycemeyer.Org/talkitout and pick that up. And Toni, you're one of our new favorite guests.
Toni Collier: Yaaay!
Erin Cluley: We love Toni.
Toni Collier: I live here, now.
Erin Cluley: I begged her to move in.
Toni Collier: That's right.
Erin Cluley: She said, "Yes".
Toni Collier: Yes. I love it. Thank you for having me on.
Ginger Stache: Well, thank you. And we just continue to pray for all of our friends out there who've been with us, that God brings you the hope of your heart. And he does something big in your life. We love you. We'll see you next time.