Joyce Meyer - It's Okay To Not Be Okay with Dr. Henry Cloud
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Ginger Stache: Hello friends. Welcome to a very exciting love life women's conference, special edition, of Joyce Meyer's Talk it Out podcast. This is where Joyce shares the Word of God in her wonderful, practical, no-nonsense away. And then, my friends and I, talk about the important stuff of just living it. We don't hold anything back. We talk about it all. I'm Ginger Stache, this is Jai, and Erin Cluley, three friends, who know the importance of having honest,that's the key today, loving women around you. When we need a little extra help, we are so blessed to have ms. Joyce here with us. She jumps in. And today, we are also, so grateful to have Dr. Henry Cloud with us.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Hey, guys.
Ginger Stache: Welcome!
Dr. Henry Cloud: It's good to be with you all.
Ginger Stache: We need you.
Joyce Meyer: I thought this might be over my head, so we brought in the big guy.
Ginger Stache: Dr. Cloud is a clinical psychologist. And you love helping take every aspect of people's lives, bring it all together, and just talk about wholeness, and how God fits into all of that. And Joyce was saying earlier, that this is the side with the issues. And then, we're gonna ask you the answers, so.
Erin Cluley: Good luck!
Dr. Henry Cloud: I need to move my chair.
Joyce Meyer: We're getting a free couch session.
Jai Williams: Yes!
Ginger Stache: Well, with what Joyce...
Dr. Henry Cloud: I'm sorry, that's all I have time for.
Erin Cluley: That's not gonna work for us.
Ginger Stache: With what Joyce was just teaching, and Joyce it was so good, thank you. Talking аbout: it's okay, not to be okay.
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Ginger Stache: And that's a hard thing for Christians to do because we do want to... I... there's so many reasons. We wanna have that facade, "That everything's fine". We don't want people to know that we're imperfect and broken people, but we all are.
Joyce Meyer: And we think it's expected of us...
Ginger Stache: Yes, exactly.
Joyce Meyer: From other Christians. A lot of it comes from other people. It's like, you can almost be more honest with an unbeliever, than sometimes you can...
Dr. Henry Cloud: Oh, many times.
Joyce Meyer: A believer because there's this expectation that we should be in faith all the time, and always be able to just believe every problem away.
Erin Cluley: And you're the one Christian who can't, if you say that there's something wrong. You're the only one who doesn't know how.
Jai Williams: I grew up in the era where, when I was a little kid, everyone asked, you know, the adults, you know, "How you doing"? Everybody's, "I'm blessed. I'm blessed. I'm blessed". No one ever actually, said, "I'm having a rough day". So, I grew up in that environment, and so, yeah.
Ginger Stache: Dr. Cloud, what do you think, when you hear that?
Dr. Henry Cloud: One of the things that I always say about that, it's kind of like when job was hurting, all of his friends, that,what they basically, said was, a lot of times what Christians will say, "That if something's wrong with you, then something's wrong".
Joyce Meyer: Yeah.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Like, 'cuz if something wasn't wrong with you, then nothing would be wrong. You see what I'm saying? So, if you've got a problem, you're failing in some way. And that's not what the Bible says.
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry Cloud: And it's like, God got mad at them in the end. He gave job all the cows. So, job was the one that was honest.
Joyce Meyer: And actually, if you look at the people in the Bible, David is a great example of being so honest about how he felt and what he was going through. But he always came back to faith in God. Same thing with the apostle Paul. So, I don't know what got into the church that, you know, we had to start feeling like that we had to be perfect all the time. And if you weren't, you dare not tell anybody, otherwise, you'll be judged.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, that's exactly right. And you know, Jesus actually, warned us against this, about how it gets into the church. He said, "Beware of the leaven of the pharisees". And that leaven was exactly, he said, "You guys clean up the outside of the cup," but inwardly, there's all of this stuff: and there's pain, and loss, and trauma. And, and he said, you know, "Take off the fig leaf," and start to be real, and God, can heal this stuff.
Joyce Meyer: I've been thinking a lot about authenticity for the last several months, and just wrote a book called, "Authentically, and uniquely you". And the thing that provoked, this message in me, was I just started, I just started realizing that every time you ask a Christian, how they are, they're always fine. "I'm fine. Praise the Lord. I'm good". And I thought, "No, you're not. You're not," nobody is fine all the time. Now, we may be fine spiritually, because we trust God, but I think we can have much better relationships if we're honest and say, you know, somebody asked me today, you know, how my eyes were because I'm getting ready to have some cataracts removed. And I said, "They're okay, but they could be better". You know, I didn't need to say, "Oh, they're fine. Praise the Lord. They're fine". We need to be real with each other.
Dr. Henry Cloud: That's right. You know, it's so interesting, you know, Jesus said, "I didn't come to judge. I didn't come to condemn".
Ginger Stache: That's huge. We don't believe that.
Dr. Henry Cloud: He started the whole thing there. And then, he said some incredible,like three words together. It says, that he came to seek and to save that, which was lost. Seek means he's really looking for, to heal. Save, in the Bible, that word means heal. And lost is interesting. It doesn't mean God's going, "Where are the humans"?
Ginger Stache: "Where did I put them"?
Joyce Meyer: Where are they? Where'd I put 'em"?
Dr. Henry Cloud: The Greek word actually means broken beyond repair.
Joyce Meyer: Wow.
Dr. Henry Cloud: So, what he's saying is, "Look, don't feel bad about this. I'm actually, looking for the parts of you that are hurting and broken".
Joyce Meyer: That's great.
Dr. Henry Cloud: "And let's bring them into the light," he says that a gazillion times. And let's be honest with each other, and that's how he heals us.
Joyce Meyer: That's great. That's good.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Do you know there's actually brain science about that? Like, if you, the extreme would be like, with trauma, that when we have bad things that are really painful happen, it literally, gets frozen in one part of the brain. It's called the hippocampus. And then,and it can't move it. And so, it stays there overtime. That's why a lot of people can feel that wound years later, when somebody says something that triggers it, right? But then, when we start to talk about it, and like the Bible says, we grieve it. And we heal each other, and we process it, it literally, gets unstuck, it moves through the brain, and then it connects to another part of our brain that has language and understanding, and time sequencing, where I can put it in a larger narrative, where it really can turn into a memory, and not feeling it every day, all over again.
Ginger Stache: That's fascinating.
Dr. Henry Cloud: It takes that kind of healing that God says "Do".
Erin Cluley: Like talk it out.
Dr. Henry Cloud: You gotta talk it out.
Jai Williams: I can't wait for it just to be a memory. I don't wanna feel, that's what I was telling one of my friends. I don't wanna feel, some of the trauma that I've just recently gone through, I don't wanna feel the pain, or any of it. It's going away slowly by, you know, little by little by little...
Dr. Henry Cloud: By processing, right?
Jai Williams: The processing of it. But I just like praying, like, I wanna fast forward, honestly, to get to the point where I don't feel it anymore. And it's just a fact, a part of my story.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, you know, we do wanna fast forward, but it's interesting. I love a passage in Ecclesiastes where Solomon says, "It is better to go into the house of grief than the house of pleasure. Because a sad face can make a heart happy". Now, think about this. A lot of times, you know, people have pain, what do we do? Instead of facing it and talking about it and sharing it, we go to the house of pleasure, thinking, you know, "I'm gonna go drink this away," or, "Take drugs," or you know, "One more sexual experience to try to self-medicate". But if we'll just go into the sad face, and grieve with each other, and all of that, then that makes the heart happy. And it's right there in the scriptures.
Joyce Meyer: You know a scripture that I think is really under taught, in the church, is in James: "Confess your faults to one another that you may be healed". Actually, I've never heard a sermon on that, never. So, I guess, I need to preach one.
Erin Cluley: You should do one.
Joyce Meyer: But it is that, there is something very healing about just telling somebody what you've done, or what you're going through, or you know. Don't you just think that's an interesting scripture? "Confess your faults to one another that you may be healed".
Dr. Henry Cloud: It's like brain science. I mean, what we know about how things are healed, you know, hurts and all, and the interesting thing about that verse is it doesn't say, "Confess your faults to one another, so that you may be forgiven". 'Cuz, you know, 1 John 1:9 says, "We confess to God and we're forgiven". But to be healed, we've actually got this stuff move,get it moved out of our system. And in back to being okay, to be not okay, right? And being authentic. Why did God put your tear ducts in your eyes? Now, think about that.
Ginger Stache: That's an interesting question.
Dr. Henry Cloud: He could have put them under your arm. You spray a little bit.
Ginger Stache: I actually, I'm the kind of person that would have loved that. You know, if the tear ducts were not where everyone could see them.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Exactly, exactly. It's because when we are, when somebody is looking into our soul, when we're expressing our pain, through that connection, it creates space neurologically in the brain, so it can be processed. And when the Bible says, "Weep with those who weep," we're authentically, exactly what you're saying, Joyce, teaching people, take the fig leaf off, get vulnerable, and be real, so that you might be healed.
Ginger Stache: You keep saying, "Take the fig leaf off". So, you're just talking about...
Dr. Henry Cloud: Now, that's from Genesis.
Ginger Stache: Yeah, so, basically, being naked out there, you know. Being spiritually naked, vulnerable. I love what you said about authenticity...
Dr. Henry Cloud: And just an interesting line about that, I think it was rollo may, who said that modern mankind has taken the fig leaf and moved it from the genitals to the face. So, now, we're free with our bodies, but we're not authentic and hiding ourselves.
Ginger Stache: You called authenticity,the definition of it, "Letting go of who we think we're supposed to be, and embracing who we are: who God made us". I love that. That's what a lot of us need to be able to do.
Joyce Meyer: Yeah, I think that I've made a good journey toward that. I'm very open and honest about my stuff, and usually, everybody else's, unless they tell me not to be. So, like, I had a specific question I wanted to ask you today because you're in this field, and you know. I had a woman write me, not too long ago. And she said, "You talk about everything, and you're so open and honest about everything". She said, "Would you please talk about people who have to take anxiety and, or depression medicine". She said, "I feel like there's so much judgement toward people who do that". And so, that's something I wanted to talk about today, because I feel like we're in a season where God is wanting to let people know, that if they really need it that, that's okay. Can you give us your perspective on that?
Dr. Henry Cloud: Oh, absolutely. The biggest thing that people don't understand to begin with is that all medicines are not the same. You know, there,if, you know, there are tranquilizers that you can take, that'll immediately, make you feel fine. You haven't dealt with anything. You know, you're just, it's sort of like, you know, another margarita. But this whole world of, what are called, antidepressants, you can take one of those, it doesn't make you feel fine. What it does is, it restores brain chemistry levels to where your brain can return to functioning normally. And so, there are a lot of anxiety states that are created by certain kinds of brain activity, where you have kind of an overactive amygdala. It's like a car alarm. It's always going off like this when there, it's a false alarm. And then, people will feel this and then they start obsessing about it, like, "What's wrong? The planes gonna go down". "The car," you know, "My kid's gonna drown," or "Something bad is gonna happen," to make sense of how they feel. When really, it's a physiological thing that's happening because of brain chemistry. Same thing with people that are bipolar, same thing with a lot of psychoses. Now, here's the thing. This is all generated by an organ which is your brain, just like the rest of your organs in your body. We would never tell a diabetic, "Don't take your insulin, just trust in the Lord more".
Joyce Meyer: Yeah, "Have faith".
Dr. Henry Cloud: And their pancreas isn't working. Well, a lot of people, the brain chemistry is not working like it's supposed to. And so, the brain can't tell itself to have energy, and to be able to concentrate, and to be able to have an appetite, and to be able to not have a horrible mood, where you can't even get out of bed sometimes. And I have seen so many miracles, Joyce. I'm not kidding. Miracles, when people get on the right medicine.
Joyce Meyer: And you don't always have to stay on it all your life but sometimes you need it for a period of time. You were talking about those neurotransmitters and they get messed up from a lot of stress in our life, or abuse in your childhood. I mean, there's a lot of reasons...
Dr. Henry Cloud: And sometimes genetics.
Joyce Meyer: Yeah, and sometimes just genetics. Sometimes it's just, you know, something that runs in the family. So, I just wanted, as a doctor, for you to tell people, they don't have to feel guilty, if they really need, and I'm stressing really need, because I'm not, I've been hesitant to talk about this, because in my position, I don't want to give everybody permission to run to the pill bottle instead of dealing with their problems, and so.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Absolutely not. But there's the difference. The kind of medicine that we're talking about, doesn't make you run from your problems. It won't do that. What it does is, it equips your brain to be able to concentrate enough to deal with the problems. I've treated severely depressed people who, they go to church, "I'm supposed to be in the word, and I know that, I can't focus. I can't read. I don't have literally, the energy to". And then, they get on the right medicine and they go back to being able to function as the spiritually mature people they are.
Joyce Meyer: Well, I was just really, really, really tired of people feeling guilty and condemned about taking something that they really needed. When like, you said, if they were diabetic, or if they had a heart problem, or whatever else, there's no condemnation.
Ginger Stache: Or not doing it because of a false shame, which should not exist.
Dr. Henry Cloud: And a lot of times, a lot of this comes out in Christian language. "Well, if you had enough faith, or you believed God".
Erin Cluley: Please talk about that. Tell us more.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Yeah, and it's just crazy. It's Christian scientists that don't believe that, you know, there's disease and illness. The Bible says that when the creation fell, we fell. So, everything is affected. Some people have heart problems. Some people that have diabetes. Some people have other, and we treat those. Now, here's another thing about this. Is that a lot of times people do go to,and a lot of times, it's a GP or, you know, a family practitioner, and what they're dealing with, on a psychiatric basis, really is going to take a lot of times a good psychiatrist. Because that's their specialty and they know the dosage levels and which one affects which. So, if at all possible, I would say to people, "Look, if you're having," and these are all metabolic cycles. If you're having sleep disturbances,you go to sleep, and then, you wake up and you can't go back to sleep, or sometimes, you know, problems fall asleep, if your appetite has changed, significantly, like you've lost your appetite, or for some reason, you know, "If it ain't tied down, I'm gonna eat it," sorta thing, if you're having extreme fatigue that even, after resting, you're still tired, like, rrr... rrr... And the batteries won't start going, a loss of libido, if you've lost your sex drive, if you have difficulty concentrating: all of those are tied to metabolic cycles that are driven by neurotransmitters. And those are really good indications, and a lot of times, you might need to go to a good psychiatrist, or get cleared by your GP or something, to say, "I think I might be depressed".
Joyce Meyer: And see, even that, who wants to tell another Christian that you go to a psychiatrist.
Ginger Stache: And that goes back to that, it's okay, not to be okay. We can help each other through these things, instead of condemning one another for it.
Dr. Henry Cloud: And you know, what the scripture actually says, if we say we're okay, "The truth is not in us, and we lie". That's what 1 John says. But if we will own it...
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry Cloud: And say, you know, "I'm missing the Mark. I've got some issues," then God is just all over it with compassion and healing and everything else. It's the people in denial that the Bible is always going, "You don't do that". It's not the people who are hurting.
Joyce Meyer: Well, I've caught myself, even since, I taught that message, people saying, "How are you"? And just saying, "I'm fine," and then, saying, "Wait. No, I'm not really fine. I have a headache". It's like,it's liberating. And I am fine in the spirit. I trust God, I'm not unhappy, but I'm not totally fine, you know. You're not totally fine right now. You got pain that you got to get taken care of. Nerve pain that's affecting your knee and your ability to walk. I'm not totally fine, right now. I'm getting ready to have cataract surgery.
Ginger Stache: And it's the same way with how we're feeling emotionally, or spiritually.
Jai Williams: I'm not fine.
Erin Cluley: I'm not fine.
Jai Williams: I'm sure not fine.
Ginger Stache: I wanna ask both of you, are there areas that you find it more difficult to be vulnerable in, or even a situation, or something where, you know, "Help me be okay, with not being okay, in this situation"?
Jai Williams: I mean, I've learned through this season, Dr. Cloud, you may or may not know, I've recently gone through divorce. And so, the trauma of finding out that my husband was unfaithful, all the way to now, being divorced, and now, him quickly being, you know, engaged to be remarried, those trigger points.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Ah...
Jai Williams: Yeah, those trigger points in me are like intense. So, I've learned thanks to this platform to, and just my personality period, like, I pretty much talk through my pain, even if it's over sharing. I don't know. But I do talk through situations because I've believed in the power of communication and finding people that you can trust so that they can give you good wisdom. You know, I believe in counseling. I've never been to a psychiatrist, but after you just said that, I probably need to go. I'm not playin' because I don't wanna fee, I wanna fee, I want to be okay. And honestly, be able to say, "I'm okay". But there are times, especially, now, that the divorce has been final now, for about four, maybe four months, three or four months, officially. And he's moved on. And I've shared with some things, and some people are still, like, "Why aren't you over it? Like why aren't you just," so, then, I do have a little hesitation in sharing because it's like, "Well, maybe, I should be over it". Like, you know, it happened, you know,so, I do have those moments of, I'm a very transparent person, and I like to talk about things like, while I'm in it, I believe in transparency during,through the process. Not in every situation, but I do believe that it's a powerful place to be, to be able to share where you are, and not always from a testimonial perspective, like, this is what I've been through. I like to also, tell people what I'm going through now, because it's okay to be a Christian and still not have a good day, so, yeah.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, if you look at,you know, I think everybody would agree that Paul was kind of spiritual.
Joyce Meyer: A little bit.
Dr. Henry Cloud: So, always, when people say this, can I say a bad word? It's in the Bible. If it's in the Bible?
Joyce Meyer: Okay. We have editing capabilities. Give it a go.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, I'll use the word he said, "I count it all as dung," right? It's just a bunch of you-know-what. A lot of stuff that Christians put on each other, and I always tell 'em, "Go read your Bible, 'cuz the Bible doesn't say what that Christian just told you". If you read,just go read Paul, and what does he say? "I was despondent of life. We were getting the you-know-what kicked out of us at all turns and all this is going on," and just despairing and all, he just puts it right out there. And then, he says something really, really powerful in this one passage. He says, "And God, who comforts the depressed, sent Titus to me".
Joyce Meyer: That's good.
Dr. Henry Cloud: 'cuz a lot of people think, you know, well, you're,"Just give it to God and now your depression's automatically gonna go away". Well, many, many times, what God has designed is, the one anothers, of the New Testament, that we come alongside one another. And Paul writes in a lot of his letters over, and over, and over, "I was refreshed by the coming of," so-and-so.
Joyce Meyer: That's true.
Dr. Henry Cloud: And how we're supposed to not hide from each other, when we're hurting. We're supposed to be authentic. And then, we can be there for each other. And that's so much of how God comforts our pain. Jesus is there, "Where two or more are". And he's there incarnationally. And we need to have open circles, like this, around fireplaces, and dinner tables, and Starbucks, where people are doing exactly what you're saying.
Joyce Meyer: I think one of the big reasons why people don't do this is because people don't know how to keep their mouths shut about your secrets.
Jai Williams: Yes.
Joyce Meyer: They don't have...
Dr. Henry Cloud: That's right.
Joyce Meyer: There's too much tattling and telling. And people are afraid today, if you tell somebody something, it's gonna be all over social media, the next day. And so, there,we need to have...
Dr. Henry Cloud: Or a prayer chain.
Joyce Meyer: Yeah. We need to have more, we shouldn't even have to be told, "Please, don't tell anybody this". That should just be a given that "Whatever you tell me, that's personal. It's your story, if you want to tell somebody else. But I'm just going to cover you, and pray for you, and be a friend to you".
Dr. Henry Cloud: And Proverbs actually, talks about, you know, the value of the ability to keep a confidence. Even if somebody's done something to us. You know, you go to Matthew 18, and what does it say? It says, "Talk to them in private". That's supposed to be safe.
Erin Cluley: I went to a counselor for the first time this past year, probably like, a lot of people did. And that is the thing that I appreciated the most out of that session, was I told that woman, everything that I was feeling in that moment. And I have never done that before. And I have never felt such freedom. And I want to be honest and vulnerable enough to tell my friends, those deep, dark feelings I have, but I'm too scared. I'm too scared that they're gonna judge me, or, not because they have, but that's a fear of mine.
Joyce Meyer: That person was legally bound, not to tell anybody.
Erin Cluley: Yeah, she couldn't tell anybody. I don't know about you guys! Or my other friends. So, yeah, it's scary.
Joyce Meyer: Well, I really think God's calling for a change and I think it's more important than what we may realize. I think it, I believe that people are just crying out, to just be who they are. Stop all the pretense.
Dr. Henry Cloud: That's right. And one of the things that I try to suggest a lot of times is, if you're going to get together with just a few friends, and you're gonna pray for each other, and you're gonna share some stuff, then set up some ground rules. You know, make a covenant together, and just make it explicit, instead of having to feel weird about it. Because a lot of times, we do have to go somewhere, where we're "Legally," you know, protected from that. Well, shouldn't a covenant be better than the law?
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Right, that's the way it's supposed to be. But the Bible also says this, that even in the church, there's bad actors, there are gossips, and there are people that'll use you. And, you know, David said in Psalm 101, it was so powerful. He says, "There are certain kinds of people, I will not tolerate: the narcissistic, judgmental, gaslighting, holier-than-thou". He just lists them all. And then, he says, "But those who are blameless, who walk in a blameless way, they will be the ones that minister to me". He actually said, he's gonna choose good, safe people to minister to his heart. And that's what we need to be diligent about that.
Ginger Stache: What suggestions would you give people, our friends, who are watching, right now, who think, "I want this. You know, I want to be able to let that facade down. I want to be myself, but I'm just scared," and they've probably been hurt before. What are some steps to start moving toward that?
Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, it's a really important question. One of the things to remember is that sometimes when you've been hurt, and you know, used and gaslighted, and all that, that there's so much noise that's really hard to see who's safe, and who isn't. And lot of times, people will not see it coming, and they get seduced into feeling like they're safe, and then, they get used or hurt. So, if you're not sure, and you,your people-picker is kind of broke...
Joyce Meyer: People-picker, I like that.
Jai Williams: I was just gonna say, "How do you fix your people-picker"? Literally, right before you said that, so.
Joyce Meyer: I'm gonna preach that, "Is your people-picker broken"?
Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, what did Jesus say? "We have to get the log out of our own eye first, so we can see clearly".
Jai Williams: That's good, yeah.
Dr. Henry Cloud: 'Cuz a lot of times, if we're,been hurt and all that, we just can't even see who's around us. So, if you're not sure, then, you said it exactly right. Go somewhere, where somebody hangs out a shingle that says, "This is a confidential space. I am trained to help you with what you're struggling with. It is not gonna go anywhere. And if it does, you can have me put in jail". So, start somewhere safe. And then, from there, I would kind of move up the food chain a little bit, to where, you know, from a counseling or counseling group, then you could go to like, a ministry, like, celebrate recovery, for example, where they have ground rules. And people,the only reason you show up there is because you're being authentic. Nobody comes to celebrate recovery and says, "I'm here to show y'all how holy I am".
Joyce Meyer: "I'm here 'cuz I don't have a problem".
Dr. Henry Cloud: You'd get thrown right out, right?
Joyce Meyer: "I'm fine. I'm fine".
Dr. Henry Cloud: So, go somewhere that's structured. Go to your pastor, go somewhere where they're actually hanging out a sign that says, "It's safe here". Now, there,from there, you try,you start to smell out who's safe and who isn't, and who's ba, and then, you can kind of move up to where you gain the skills of, I think it's Hebrews 5:14. Amazing verse that says, "Solid food," which is relationship and a bunch of other real-life. "Solid food is for the mature, who through practice, have had their senses trained to discern good from evil". Now, that's a people-picker, right? You, through practice, and learning who's safe, and who's narcissistic, and who's vulnerable, you get your senses, because a lot of times when people grow up in dysfunctional churches or backgrounds, they get trained out of their senses. Like, you'll feel something, "Well, that doesn't hurt," or "No, the Lord is gonna turn it," "Oh, my, I think it hurts". "Shut up, or I'll give you something to cry about".
Joyce Meyer: Right.
Dr. Henry Cloud: All of that invalidation, and they get talked right out of their senses. And so, then, their senses, their gut feelings, they're not trusting them, and they get hurt again. And the Bible address this. And so, we have to be on that path of finding safety, and finding people that exhibit God's grace, and his truth. Somebody that can be honest with us. And it's so covered in grace that you thank 'em for it. You know, it's safe.
Joyce Meyer: I think we have to get to the point too, where we're not so caught up in caring about what other people think of us. I don't think you can really open up and be honest with anybody, if you're so afraid that they're gonna think that you're not this, or you are that, or you're not something else. And so, there's always two sides to it. You know, there's the side of me being willing to be authentic, but then, there's the other side of, "Will you keep my secrets"? And then, there's the side of, "Am I willing to be honest with you, even if you do judge me, am I okay with whatever you want to think about me, because the only thing I really care about is what God thinks of me".
Dr. Henry Cloud: That's right. And you know, Jesus said, "Woe to you, woe to you when all men speak well of you". You know, if you're trying to people-please and make everybody like you, and care too much about what everybody says, then we become multiple personalities, 'cuz you gotta please this person and that person.
Joyce Meyer: And like that definition of that word, you know, authentic. It's, you know, instead of being who you think everybody wants you to be, which really, everybody you know, they want something different, you know. And so, you get so confused. I mean, there were times in my life when I was so confused. And I was trying to be my neighbor, and my husband, and my pastor's wife. And, you know, none of those were uniquely me. And so, thank God, that I worked through a lot of that, but it was really challenging at the time. I've actually, come to the point, where I believe, and I was thinking about this the other day. If I am sitting around wanting to be you, "Oh, I wish I had hair like you," and, "I wish I my body was your shape". And "I wish that, you know, I could this and that, and something else". I think it's actually an insult to God because he created us uniquely with his own hand in our mother's womb, "Carefully," the Bible says. And so, not one of us is a mistake. And it,really think it's wrong to want to be somebody else. I think you really need to embrace who you are. Even if you think you're the most unique person on the planet, I think you need to embrace who you are, and you know, take a chance on being real, and if people can accept that fine, and if they can't, then you'll live without it.
Dr. Henry Cloud: And it's good to live without them. I mean, when you realize that to,for a relationship to go away because somebody disapproves of you, and you're truly pleasing God, you know, if, I always say, "Don't count your critics, weigh them". And if you're upsetting the control freaks and the narcissists, and the gas lighters, and the toxic people, it's usually 'cuz you won't do what they want. You say, "No," to 'em and they have a temper tantrum, or they judge you. If you're upsetting the right people, you're probably really doing well. Because the people we want to, that are pleased with us are, and think we're doing well, are people that we're in spiritual community with, and we're being confessional, and we're trying and all that, and they're not going to judge us. So, all these other people, let 'em go have a judgment party.
Ginger Stache: And don't invite me.
Jai Williams: I, literally, this morning, because someone had seen something, I'd shared on the talk it out podcast, and they saw something else, and they sent me a message. It was a family member, well, I guess you call it an ex family member, but they were just like, you know, "You need to just let it go. And don't do this, and don't say this, and don't didn't, you shouldn't share". And I said, "You know what? I believe that I'm hearing from the Lord on how to share. I have great people around me that are giving me wise counsel". And I was like, "And honestly, if you don't like what you're seeing, feel free to unfollow". I literally, I was like, "I love you but feel free," I literally, did that this morning. And it was like, it was hard for me to send that, but it was kind of like,
Ginger Stache: Feel free though?
Jai Williams: I did. It felt so good to say like, "Hey, if you don't like what I'm sharing, it might not be for you". But I do have great people in my life, and I'm listening in the Lord, and I'm making mistakes along the way, but if you don't like my journey, feel free to unfollow me, whoo!
Ginger Stache: That's such a key. Is admitting that you're not perfect, that you're not, I'm never doing all of it right. So, "Help me, you know, support me, but if it's not right for you, then I get it. Step back".
Jai Williams: Yeah, but her opinion of me was unsolicited. It was just like, you didn't, I didn't ask you, for your opinion of me, and I didn't ask you for your wisdom. I really have great, clearly, great people around me, you know. And I was just like, "I love you, and I appreciate you giving me your opinion, but if you don't like it, feel free to unfollow".
Dr. Henry Cloud: And it's so impossible to please a critical person. I mean, what does was a dog do? They bark. What does a critical person do? They criticize. Doesn't matter who they're with. I love that passage where, where he says, you know, "John the Baptist came neither eating or drinking and you called him all these sorts of things. The Son of Man came, eating and drinking, and you said, 'he's a glutton and a drunkard'". Who can make you happy?
Ginger Stache: How do you win?
Dr. Henry Cloud: Nobody can make these people happy.
Joyce Meyer: That's right. That's exactly right.
Ginger Stache: I think this is really freeing for a lot of people. I really do. Thank you.
Dr. Henry Cloud: One piece of advice.
Ginger Stache: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Henry Cloud: A lady said, it was in a seminar one day, and she said, "How do you deal with controlling and critical people"? I said, "Why would you want to do that? Why would you want to deal with these people"? And she goes, "Because they're everywhere". And she started talking about it, like at her church, and her work. And she always,and she was kind of like, somehow, they almost became people that she would gravitate towards to try to gain their approval. And I said, "Here's what you do, you just convert them". And she says, "Well, they're not interested in God". And I said, "I didn't say anything about God". I said, "You convert 'em from being a controlling person to being a frustrated person. Because if you just say, 'no,' they're no longer controlling, 'cuz they don't have control of you, they're just really frustrated. So, you just say, 'no,' they'll get frustrated, and they'll figure it out".
Ginger Stache: Take that power away from them, essentially.
Joyce Meyer: You got some good stuff, you know that?
Ginger Stache: He's a smart guy.
Dr. Henry Cloud: Actually, you know, it's just being extremely dysfunctional for a lot of years, and kinda, you know, doing what we're talking about. You know, it's, I think of 2 Corinthians 1, a lot. It's says, "We comfort others with the comfort, by which, we've been comforted by God".
Joyce Meyer: Amen.
Dr. Henry Cloud: When I was right, you know, in college, and right after, I really got depressed, really, really depressed. And hit the pavement hard. And God reached in. And I went in an empty church one day, and said, "If you're there, I need your help," and he showed up. And I don't know of anything that I write about that I, you know, haven't learned, both from books and being a clinician. But also, you know, just going through pain. But God can heal you. He does.
Erin Cluley: I just want to say before we finish too, thank you all so much for addressing anxiety. Because as someone, who has walked through that myself, I have, I remember sharing on this, on talk it out, last year. I was so nervous because, "I'm a Christian, and I work at Joyce Meyer Ministries, and I shouldn't have anxiety". And to hear you all say that, "That's okay. It's normal, and there's, you can do something about it," I just really appreciate that. So, thank you for talking about something that's hard.
Joyce Meyer: I think that everybody appreciates something honest. If we're just bold enough to be honest. And when you are honest, you always have to remember that not everybody is gonna like it.
Jai Williams: Amen to that.
Ginger Stache: Well, thank you all very much. It's been a great conversation. And like I said, I think it's just kind of a salve on people, what they need to hear. And so, we invite you, if you're new to talk it out, we hope that you'll keep coming back. You can subscribe to it, wherever you find your podcast. We even have a free gift for you. So, we have a great little journal that will just help you to write down some of your prayers, you're answered prayers, your thoughts. It's also, very healing and important, so we have that, which is available for you. Go to joycemeyer.org/journal and we will get that to you. You can also catch up on all of our other podcasts at joycemeyer.org/talkitout. We have so much fun! And thank you, Dr. Cloud. It's been great having you.
Dr. Henry Cloud: It's always great being here. Thanks for having me.
Ginger Stache: Thanks for talking it out with us.