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Watch 2022 online sermons » John Bradshaw » John Bradshaw - Conversation with Julian Archer

John Bradshaw - Conversation with Julian Archer


John Bradshaw - Conversation with Julian Archer
TOPICS: Conversations

Thanks for joining me. My guest is Julian Archer from Queensland, Australia. Retired in his 30s after a stint as a very successful businessman. And he's written about his business success, but in ways that you might not expect, at least not to begin with.

John Bradshaw: Julian, thanks for joining me.

Julian Archer: Thanks, John. Great to be here.

John Bradshaw: You were successful in business. How'd that come about?

Julian Archer: I'm the child of what you would call serial entrepreneurs. Not because they sold breakfast cereal, but because "serial" in the way of one business after another, you know.

John Bradshaw: Okay.

Julian Archer: The, the last one we sold was, uh, 2007, and that was business number 12. So, uh, I was born into it.

John Bradshaw: Now, you had this... it really was a conversion experience. As I understand it, you became very successful in business, but rather than owning the business, the business was owning you and leading you away from faith in God. Is that kind of what happened?

Julian Archer: That's it. Yeah, so... the businesses were growing rapidly. Uh, the last few grew even more and more rapidly, uh, 70 percent compound per annum, every year 70 percent on the year before, and just bang, bang, bang, year after year. We had what we used to describe as "a tiger by the tail" or "a tiger by the ears". You know, if you've got a tiger by the ears, you're holding onto it by the ears; you can't hang on, and you can't let go. You, you're caught. And that's...

John Bradshaw: That's right.

Julian Archer: ...how we felt in business. We were just so busy, busy, busy. The challenge that comes with that from a spiritual point of view is that I didn't have the time. I didn't have the focus to maintain that daily saving relationship with Jesus, and I just got so distracted by everything and started to actually really quite like some of the perks of being wealthy, of, of being in a business that was doing really well. You know, getting quite proud and, and, uh, self-sufficient and, uh, that sort of thing, and that really wasn't good for me spiritually.

John Bradshaw: So what are you doing today?

Julian Archer: I travel around the world running a ministry called Faith Versus Finance. Um, it's really just my testimony. It's, it came out of that, that battle that I had as a, as an affluent Christian: How do I maintain my relationship with Christ in a materialistic society?

John Bradshaw: Now, you must do this because you sense there's a need, like there's a lot of people dealing with what you went through. Is that, is that true?

Julian Archer: Yeah. Look, originally I didn't, I didn't know that. I, I thought I was the only one that was struggling with this. Uh, however, as I started to share with people, I realized, no, this is a, a very common thing, uh, for Christians around the world.

John Bradshaw: So who are the people struggling with matching together their faith with their financial situation? Is it the Bill Gateses and the Jeff Bezoses of the world? How far down the food chain do you have to come to get to that level where people are starting to have that struggle?

Julian Archer: Yeah. Excellent question. The, the money is actually relative. Now, you can be living in a slum in Calcutta, aspiring to one day own, say, $100, and put all of your focus on that. Just as much as you can be living in Marin County, California, and trying to work out how you're going to get from 500 million to a billion, and it still takes all your focus. So, it is, it is relative. It can happen to anybody anywhere, if our focus comes away from the Giver of the gifts onto the gifts.

John Bradshaw: Okay, that's a really important point. So it's really, uh, I think it's really important to point out you're not against money.

Julian Archer: No.

John Bradshaw: Okay. You don't have an ax to grind with wealthy people?

Julian Archer: No.

John Bradshaw: Wealth is okay? It's all right to be rich?

Julian Archer: Yeah.

John Bradshaw: Is it okay to be really, really rich?

Julian Archer: It is.

John Bradshaw: Okay, so I know wealthy people have often said to me, you know, "Thank you for not making us feel guilty for being rich," or, you know, "We feel like we're getting hectored for being wealthy". It's very evident that God's not against wealth. If you look in the Bible, there's some really very rich people. Uh, I think what's interesting to point out is they were instruments of God. They were His. Why was the wealth given to them?

Julian Archer: If we go right back to Genesis, we, we have one of those first wealthy men, I guess you would say, and that was Abraham. And it's very clear there. God says to him, He says, "Abraham, I'm going to bless you so that you can be a blessing". So, we are, as, as wealthy people, or as any person who has been entrusted with anything from God, and that doesn't have to be great wealth, we are conduits for God to pass those blessings through. And if we keep passing the blessings through, then we have peace; we have satisfaction. We are greatly blessed because it's more blessed to give than to receive. Everything's great. If we start to dam it up and start to pile it up, that's when we have problems. So, I think it was the, Clint Murchison Jr., he was the founder of the Dallas Cowboys, and he said that "money is like manure". He said, "If you spread it around, it does a lot of good. But if you pile it up, it stinks". And so I thought it was quite an interesting illustration. You know, we have, we have "manure" in our wallets.

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: If we, if we pile it up, it starts to stink. But if you spread it around, it does a lot of good.

John Bradshaw: So money's okay. I hear what you're saying is that this challenge of getting wealth out of focus and being owned by what you own could really happen to anybody.

Julian Archer: It could, yeah, regardless of where you're at financially, materially in life.

John Bradshaw: Do you think wealthy people have a peculiar challenge, an especially difficult challenge when it comes to maintaining a relationship with Jesus?

Julian Archer: Yeah, yeah, and, and, and Jesus shares that very clearly. He says that "it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven". And, and then period, full stop. That's, that's the end of the sentence. It, He doesn't go on and say, uh, but if you give lots away, you'll be okay. You know, He just says, look, if you're rich, it's going to be tough. It's going to be really hard to maintain a, a saving relationship with me. And in another place He says, "You can't serve God and money," or "mammon," as He called it. You can't serve those two things. I used to... now, you know, I can still hear myself thinking this and, and saying this: But, Lord, I can serve them both. What I'm going to do is I'm going to put all my time and focus and energy into the businesses and make lots of money, and then I'll give most of the money to You, and that way I'm serving You, God, and money. And, and we can do that, can't we? Well, Jesus says no, you can't. You can't serve God and money.

John Bradshaw: I think it's important to point out Jesus did not say you can't have both God and money, right?

Julian Archer: Yep.

John Bradshaw: You can have God and have money. You just can't serve God while serving money.

Julian Archer: That's right.

John Bradshaw: I think it's really interesting that Jesus made it clear. He never said it's really hard for poor people to get into heaven. He never said that. I think those people who don't have money, any money, or a lot of money, and, you know, most of us, we want to be rich. We want to, we dream of winning the lottery. You know, that's, that's just most people. Wouldn't it be great if I had tons of money? I think, even though those things are written in the Bible really very clearly, most people wouldn't stop to realize that wealthy people have a special challenge when it comes to maintaining a relationship with God, a vibrant saving relationship with God, and having a, a bulging wallet in your pocket. Most people just wouldn't get that, would they?

Julian Archer: No. I was, uh, reading an author who wrote, oh, probably about 150 years ago now, and she wrote in there that the... we, we pray for people in need, who are stricken down with health problems or financial problems or whatever it is, and she says this is as it should be. You know, we must pray for these people. But then she says, "But our most fervent prayers should be reserved for those who have been placed in a prosperous position because these men are in the greatest danger of losing their soul".

John Bradshaw: Hey, that's interesting, isn't it?

Julian Archer: It is.

John Bradshaw: These wealthy people are in the greatest danger of losing their soul. Why?

Julian Archer: Because there's something about money that gets ahold of your heart. And the more, the more you own, the more you are owned. So, you know, if you, if you own a lot of real estate, a lot of assets, a lot of investments, whatever it is, then it requires a lot of time and energy to maintain them, to insure them, to protect them, to try and make sure they don't lose value, or even to make them increase in value. It can become a 24/7 situation where you're trying to... care for this stuff that you think you own, but it actually owns you.

John Bradshaw: Do you think people can be wealthy enough so that they feel like they don't really need God? I remember working with a group of Bible workers in a part of California that was pretty well off, really pretty well off. And, uh, they were canvassing the neighborhood, and they would come back, didn't matter which Bible worker, and they would say, "Everyone is telling us, 'We don't have needs.'"

Julian Archer: Mm-hmm.

John Bradshaw: And so if you look in California, New York City, there's not a surge in interest in faith in God, but you go to poor parts of the world, and there are people who are reaching out to God. There really is a, is a correlation there, isn't there?

Julian Archer: Mmm. Absolutely.

John Bradshaw: Revelation chapter 3, Jesus said, "Because [you say], 'I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing...'" How does somebody who's doing pretty well financially keep in mind their dependence upon God? How do you do that?

Julian Archer: They've, they've got to understand a number of principles. One is that it's actually all God's. It's not theirs. They are there as stewards to, to care for it. And, and if they're Christians, they will believe that. They will, they will know that. Uh, the challenge is then taking it from the head to the heart. So you know yes, it's all God's. And when you'll hear people say, "If God took it all away tomorrow, that's okay with me," but often in their heart, they're going, "Oh, gee, I hope He doesn't". We're actually pretty attached to this lifestyle. It's pretty good. So, the, one of the ways of keeping the, the balance there is through giving, through seeing needs and being used by God to fill those needs. There's something about giving that helps to, to level us and, and, and help remind us of, of where we are from.

John Bradshaw: You've given away a lot of money and time, I take it?

Julian Archer: It's all relative.

John Bradshaw: Sure.

Julian Archer: Yeah, we have, we have given a bit.

John Bradshaw: Yeah, so you've given away a lot. So you've written some checks here and there and bigger checks than some people have written and probably not as big as many others have written. What does it do for you? How do ya, how do ya feel when you're, when you're writing that check, and you're saying, "I'm committing this to God; I'm investing in God"? Even, not even writing the check, when you do your budget and you say, whatever the outcome of our business this year, X is going to God.

Julian Archer: Mmm.

John Bradshaw: Uh, as a Christian philanthropist, particularly when you were dealing with large sums and thriving businesses, was there ever any wrestling? Was there ever a time where you said, "Ooo, we could fly first class to London instead"? Or, or, what did this do for you on the inside?

Julian Archer: Yeah, look, in the latter business years, when we were writing most of the checks, um, it was the interesting thing, because we didn't have to sacrifice one bit of our lifestyle to write those checks.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: So, the checks were getting bigger and bigger, but there was still zero sacrifice. It gets to a point, or it can get to a point, where...you just get sick of writing checks. It's just like, I, I have no heart in this game. I have no flesh in this game. Somebody sends an email, yep, here's a check. Done. Back to business. Yep, write another check, or "You write another check. I'm busy". You know, and...the heart's not in it anymore.

John Bradshaw: Interesting.

Julian Archer: Uh, so, you've got to maintain that daily relationship with God and with others for the heart to still be in it. Otherwise, it's just all, it's just all numbers.

John Bradshaw: Okay, we'll talk more about this. We've got, we've got a little time left. I, I want to talk about... Julian Archer the person, a little bit about where you're from, some of your past, colorful past, you've had an interesting background, uh, raised in a very interesting country. Uh, not everybody has to live among poisonous snakes and, and deadly spiders and spiny echidnas and wallabies. You know, for people outside of Australia, that's a great curiosity. For Australians, it's like, "Really? You want to talk about that"? But we will. We got a moment before we go to the break. So let's, let's go back. Tell me, tell me a little bit about where you're from and what your upbringing was like.

Julian Archer: Okay.

John Bradshaw: Take me back to the beginning.

Julian Archer: Um, we're going to have to talk more after the break, you know, this is...

John Bradshaw: Oh, sure. Let's just get this...

Julian Archer: Let's go back to the beginning. Let's go back a generation. My father was raised in a church where he had to go to church 11 times a week as a kid. Eight, eight to 11, at least eight times, 11 times in a busy week.

John Bradshaw: That's a lot.

Julian Archer: That's a lot of going to church. He was also the "home brew" kid, which means that it was his job in the family to make all the beer for his own family and for the relatives, the aunts and the uncles and them as well, okay?

John Bradshaw: Oh, no, let's get this straight. He's going, he's going to church 11 times a week, and brewing beer?

Julian Archer: That's right, and drinking too much of it himself as a kid.

John Bradshaw: As a kid?

Julian Archer: Okay. He gets to 14. He says, "I've had enough. I never want to set foot in a church again in my life".

John Bradshaw: Okay.

Julian Archer: "I only know of one solution", because he'd already tried everything to get out of going to church.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: You know, he's tried, he tried it all eight times a week. He goes to his uncle's farm. He gets some gelignite, that's like dynamite,

John Bradshaw: Yep.

Julian Archer: ...some fuses, he takes it home, he hides it, and he says, "I'm going to blow up my church".

John Bradshaw: "I'm going to blow up my church". We've got to hear more about this. We will, in just a moment.

John Bradshaw: Thanks for joining me. My guest is author, international speaker Julian Archer. Julian, you've, you've retired from business young, dedicated your life to ministry. But in learning about who Julian Archer is, how God led you to this place where you've dedicated yourself to ministry, you've started telling me a story about your background, and a moment ago, your dad, at 14 years of age, was going to blow up a church. Now, when your dad told you that story, did you say, "Ah, Dad, I can't believe it"? Or did you say, "Uh, okay"? Is your dad a bit of a character?

Julian Archer: Very much a bit of a character. In fact, he went to school that day and told his friend, his best friend, what he was going to do that night, blow up the church.

John Bradshaw: Oh, really?

Julian Archer: And his friend, knowing who Ray Archer was, because Ray Archer was the kid who between, in grades 8, 9, and 10 received "the cuts", that's, you know, a rap across the knuckles with a cane.

John Bradshaw: Yeah, yeah.

Julian Archer: On average, for those three years, he received the cuts once a day.

John Bradshaw: Oooh.

Julian Archer: So his friend knew that if Ray Archer said that he was going to blow up his church that night, he was going to blow up his church that night.

John Bradshaw: He was going to blow up the church.

Julian Archer: And so his friend went to the principal and told the principal; the principal told the police; the police came to the school and took Dad away.

John Bradshaw: So what was it about your dad's upbringing, for instance, that he could access gelignite and, and knew what to do with it?

Julian Archer: The gelignite was on his uncle's farm, so they used to have it for blowing stumps out of the ground, tree stumps and different things. So it was a fairly common thing to have explosives, back then.

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: Um, but, yeah, he was, he was a very creative sort of a kid. He was a bit of a homemade scientist. He knew how to use dynamite, some of those sorts of things.

John Bradshaw: "Creative"? But that's a good description. If my son blew up a church or was attempting to blow up a church, I don't know if I'd be calling him "creative," but...

Julian Archer: Yeah, that's right.

John Bradshaw: Evidently your dad was "creative".

Julian Archer: He was a "church planter".

John Bradshaw: Yes, he was.

Julian Archer: Blew it out of the ground.

John Bradshaw: So he was going to blow up the church.

Julian Archer: Mmm.

John Bradshaw: And the police arrive at the house. What in the world happened?

Julian Archer: They said to him, "Son, you know, what's the situation here"? And he explained: "My parents force me to go to church eight times a week, or up to 11 times a week, and I hate it, and I want to blow up the church". And so what they actually did is they took him home and took the parents away.

John Bradshaw: Oh, they took the parents away?

Julian Archer: Yeah. Not far, not far. But they showed the parents the, the gelignite, the dynamite, and said, "Do you realize what your son was going to do with this tonight"? And they had no idea. And so the police said, "You need to back off on religion. You need to just give this kid a break". And I think they probably did back off a little bit, but soon after, Dad left home. He'd had enough. That was, he'd had enough religion for the rest of his life.

John Bradshaw: So was it the religion, or was it a particularly strict church? And it's probably best that we don't name the denomination...

Julian Archer: Sure.

John Bradshaw: ...because we don't want to give anybody ideas here, or, or, or harm anybody's reputation. But what, what was it about the church? It was, he just hated going, or they were really strict? What was it?

Julian Archer: Yeah, very strict, in a, in a lot of different ways, and of course, going to church eight times a week is part of that.

John Bradshaw: Sure.

Julian Archer: And he saw it more as a punishment than a blessing. You know, that was it, and so he left home, still drinking too much.

John Bradshaw: So he left home young and drinking?

Julian Archer: Yeah, yeah, not a good combination.

John Bradshaw: Nah.

Julian Archer: Nah. And, uh, moved in with his older brother, uh, which also wasn't a good situation there either. Uh, his older brother went to prison for some things, and, uh, Dad missed out on the prison time, but he was drinking too much. And, uh, met my mum when he was, uh, about 18.

John Bradshaw: Oh, yeah?

Julian Archer: And they got married at 19 and had my younger sister and myself. We're 11 months apart; we were quite close together. And Dad had by this stage, uh, or around this time started up a small business, a refrigeration business because he had, uh, sort of got his trade in, in refrigeration mechanics, and he, he wanted to have his own business. This was his thing; he was going to go out on his own. Which he did, and he bought himself a welder for welding steel, and a friend of his said to him, "Ray, can you make me a bench press"? This was late '60s, so the bodybuilding, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger...

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: ...and Lou Ferrigno, the Incredible Hulk, all this sort of stuff was just kicking off in California. Uh, and, and it was floating across the Pacific, and there were some people in Brisbane going, hey, yeah, we want big muscles, too, you know. And, and so, Dad welded up this bench for his friend... it's one of these ones where you push the weights away from your chest...

John Bradshaw: Yep.

Julian Archer: ...and sold it to his friend and made a small profit. And he thought, hey, that's pretty good.

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: I'll make another one.

John Bradshaw: An entrepreneur was born.

Julian Archer: That's right. And I'll make another one. In my spare time, when I'm not doing refrigeration work, I'm going to make this gym gear. And before you know it, he had a business called Archer Bodybuilding Equipment, where he was selling all sorts of different pieces of gym gear. And the bodybuilding business was taking off, the, the industry was taking off in, in Australia, and he was supplying a lot of the gear. And then he thought, oh, man, I'm making all this gear. I can get it cheap because I make it myself. Why don't I open a gym? And so he and Mum opened a gym, and before you know it, it had a thousand members, and they're like, cool, let's open another one.

John Bradshaw: Wow.

Julian Archer: So they opened another gym, another 1,000 members. And then they realized that they could actually make more money out of selling protein drinks than gym memberships. And so they said, "We need to open a health food store". And so they opened a health food store. So here they are, 24 years of age,

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: ...they've, in the last four years, four or five years, they've opened, they've got the refrigeration business, a bodybuilding equipment business, two gymnasiums, and a health food store.

John Bradshaw: So they were running all of these things at the same time?

Julian Archer: Simultaneous.

John Bradshaw: Oh, really?

Julian Archer: Eighteen hours a day, and, and two kids. Throw in a couple of kids as well. They had the children. Their business lives were successful. You look at them... success. Five years, five businesses, going well, excellent. Their marriage was absolutely hell.

John Bradshaw: You can imagine.

Julian Archer: Their marriage was just totally shot, and they had to make a decision between marriage and business. And I thank God that they chose marriage at that stage.

John Bradshaw: Not everybody would have, you know.

Julian Archer: No, no, it's pretty attractive to try and hang in there with the money and, and the success.

John Bradshaw: They were making plenty or...

Julian Archer: Yeah, yeah, good, good money, good businesses. Yeah, right on the front edge of the bodybuilding industry.

John Bradshaw: Got in at the right time, didn't they?

Julian Archer: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, they, they sold four of the businesses, they kept the health food store, and they moved to what we call "the bush".

John Bradshaw: Oh, yeah?

Julian Archer: And we bought a, a little 33-acre property.

John Bradshaw: That's right. Thirty-three acres is little.

Julian Archer: Uh, yeah, well, one neighbor had 15, and the other one had 2,000. So, so...

John Bradshaw: Oh, relatively speaking.

Julian Archer: That's right. So there were cattle properties on, on both sides, and we were in the middle. And we became hippies. That was it. They just turned their back on the city, turned their back on society and money. We were a little bit late because it was, by this time it was 1974.

John Bradshaw: Oh, yeah?

Julian Archer: And the hippies all happened in the '60s, but Mum and Dad were busy in the '60s, and so, you know, we had to do it a bit later.

John Bradshaw: Yeah, we'll get around to that.

Julian Archer: That's right. And so, you know, self-sufficiency and all that, we were.

John Bradshaw: Hey, so why'd they keep the health food store and not the gym or, or the refrigeration business or whatever?

Julian Archer: I think probably proximity because the health food store was actually about half-way between where we moved to and Brisbane. It was west of the city anyway. Uh, and so it was something that they could still access, and Mum or Dad would go into the city each day, Monday to Friday, to run that health food store, and we would stay at home, and I was about 4 or 5 at this time, my sister 5 or 6, uh, and we just grew up as hippies out there in the bush.

John Bradshaw: So how did this, how did this church-going, church-hating, home brew brewing, you know, scalawag of a kid who's wanting to blow up a church, how did he drift into being a hippie, this hippie, self-sufficient hippie lifestyle? How, what, what drew him to that?

Julian Archer: Just a bit of wanting to turn, turn away from it all. Just, just put it all in the past, start afresh, uh, not just change suburbs into a new home, new business, new whatever, but actually just "go bush". We call it "tree change" in Australia. You got a "sea change" or a "tree change". We did a "tree change".

John Bradshaw: The reason I ask, it is, I think, very relevant considering what's going to happen next in your, in your parents' story and in yours. So tell me about this hippie lifestyle. What did that look like in Australia?

Julian Archer: I can't tell you too much what it looked like because there wasn't a lot of clothes involved or...yeah.

John Bradshaw: Oh, really?

Julian Archer: Yeah, we were, we moved into, onto this 33-acre property. We have no neighbors. So no one's looking, you know.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: And we moved into a shed that was 8 feet wide and 14 feet long. No running water, no electricity, you know, no comforts.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: Okay, so, big change...

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: ...from where we had been living. And of course if you've got no running water and electricity, you can't have a washing machine, etc. etc. So clothes, just, you know, bit tricky to wash them, and who needs them? Who needs them? So, it was, it was a bit of a different lifestyle, uh, from that point of view. But, of course, growing up in it, you think it's just normal. You know, that's, that's how you lived. You don't have to wear clothes all the time. Um, and that's how we grew up, trying to grow our own food. For Mum and Dad it was probably very stressful. For us as kids it was a pretty fancy, footloose...

John Bradshaw: Your Mum wasn't stressing about ironing anybody's clothes, but that's one thing.

Julian Archer: That's right. We, we had clothes when we went to town. Don't get me wrong; we did own clothes.

John Bradshaw: Right, yeah.

Julian Archer: And the health food store and all that.

John Bradshaw: So, so by now your parents are hippies. They're living this alternative lifestyle. They're running a health food store. Their life changed really dramatically. Your dad hated religion.

Julian Archer: Yep.

John Bradshaw: Wanted to blow up the church. If conversion is a turnaround in a person's life, he turned around. How'd that happen?

Julian Archer: A guy called Harry is how that happened. A guy called Harry Walker would come into that health food store every day and buy a loaf of bread. And, now, he had no children at home; it was only Harry and his wife.

John Bradshaw: They liked bread, evidently.

Julian Archer: Well, yeah, we have no idea to this day what they did with that bread because you couldn't eat a full loaf a day of this heavy healthy bread. But that's what he did every day he came in. And every day he would come to buy his loaf of bread, and he'd say, "Oh, Ray, how's, how's the house building going"? Or, or, "Delphine, how are the kids"? You know, and he always had this personal relationship happening. At the time, Dad was building a house, which took him seven years to build because he was making it out of sandstone, and a lot of the sandstone he was actually cutting out of the ground himself.

John Bradshaw: Good grief, really?

Julian Archer: Yeah, so...

John Bradshaw: Wow.

Julian Archer: ...took years, you know, sandstone and big logs. It was quite an interesting home. So Harry would come in and say, "How's that house going"? and that sort of thing. And he was building a relationship. We had no idea what Harry was doing. We just thought he was a friendly customer. And one day Harry came into the shop, and he said, "Ray, you won't believe it. There's a guy coming to town, and he is talking about how the Egyptians built their pyramids out of stone. Do you want to come along"?

John Bradshaw: Come on, he's talking to a man who's building his own house out of stone.

Julian Archer: That's right.

John Bradshaw: Fantastic.

Julian Archer: Yeah. And so Dad goes, "Yeah, we'll come". And so Mum and Dad and myself and Kathy, we'd all pile in our old pickup, and we drive down to, Ipswich was the town where this was all happening, and we listened to a guy talk about the Egyptians, and a little bit about how they built it out of stone, but there wasn't a whole, a whole lot of that, but there was, there was some of that. And, uh, met some great people. Went back the next week. Same people, different topic. Loved it. And kept going week after week and, uh, and learning a lot, not just about the Egyptians, but about God as well.

John Bradshaw: So how did your dad take this? He's going to meetings about the Egyptians building pyramids, and suddenly he realizes, you know, they're talking about God here.

Julian Archer: Mmm.

John Bradshaw: And the last time I had anything to do, to do with God, I was, I was attempting to blow up His house.

Julian Archer: Mmm.

John Bradshaw: But now your dad's attitude evidently was pretty different.

Julian Archer: Yeah. Very interesting what friendship can do, and, and when the gospel is being presented as the gospel of Jesus Christ, the, the life-changing love-sent gospel of Jesus Christ. And so, they kept going, week after week. Finally the series finished, and we went back to the bush, and Harry kept coming in every day and buying that loaf of bread.

John Bradshaw: Oh, yeah?

Julian Archer: And couple months later, Harry comes in, and Mum's in the shop, and he says, "Delphine, there's this couple coming to town, and they're teaching about vegetarian cooking. Would you like to come along and learn how to cook vegetarian food"? And she's like, "Ah, sounds interesting, but I'll talk to Ray". So she comes home and says, "Ray, Harry has invited us to this vegetarian cooking thing. Do you want to go"? Now, Dad, at this stage, is an ex-bodybuilder, okay? And this is back in the '60s when he was bodybuilding, and back then they had no idea that there was protein anywhere else except red meat.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: And so the idea was if you wanted to put on 10 pounds, you ate 50 pounds of red meat, and it somehow miraculously transferred and became muscle on you instead of muscle on the cow. And so that's how he was thinking. And he's like, "No way. I have no interest in vegetarian food". And Mum said, "But a lot of our customers are vegetarian".

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: "And if we learn how to cook vegetarian food, we'll be able to sell more stuff". Dad's like, sign me up. Where do I...give me a pen, where... I want to join this, you know. And so, he and we, you know, we all pile into the old pickup again, and we drive down to Ipswich. We walk into this room where they are about to do this cooking demonstration, and we look around, and we go, "No way". The exact same people who were interested in Egypt were interested in vegetarian cooking. In a city, 100,000 people.

John Bradshaw: Who'd a thought?

Julian Archer: Who'd a thought? Who'd a thought?

John Bradshaw: Who'd a thought?

Julian Archer: Yeah. And so we're like, we're amongst friends again.

John Bradshaw: Great. God is working things out. God's working things out, and He does work things out. We'll find out how in just a moment.

John Bradshaw: Thanks for joining me today. Julian, we left off just a moment ago. Mum and Dad had been to a, a seminar learning about the Egyptians building their great structures. Now Harry's invited them to something else: vegetarian cooking program. They arrive, and they're among friends. Dad didn't want to go to that program to begin with, but now he's back. Does he realize at this stage that he's among churchy folks?

Julian Archer: Yeah, I think that's starting, it's starting to dawn. Uh, and, and that's where there's a bit of hesitation coming. But they're such good people, and they just loved us, so much.

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: We must have been like "the item" or their favorite hippie family or something. And they, they just loved us. And so, we learned how to cook vegetarian food, and we went back to the bush. And Harry kept coming into the shop every day and buying a loaf of bread. Good old Harry. He was an engineer in the railways. He was no, he was no special, you know, uh, super disciple or, or anything like this. He just wanted to tell people about Jesus, and, and he'd chosen us, and we thank God he did. And so, he kept coming in there every day, and one day he said to my dad, he said, "Ray, would you like to come along to church"? Well, we know Dad's experience. He'd been to church eight times a week when he was a kid, up until the age of 14. He had had more church than most people who go to church for eight years.

John Bradshaw: Yep.

Julian Archer: He'd had in that first 14 years. And he was like, how am I going to get out of this? And he thought, I know what I'll do. I'll ask Harry what, what day he goes to church.

John Bradshaw: All right.

Julian Archer: Because you see Sunday was the only day that we never went to town. We, we just, that was our family day at home, and we never went to the city. And so he says to Harry, "Harry, I, I'd love to, but what, what day do you go to church"? And Harry's like, "Oh, Saturday mornings". And Dad's like, "What? Saturday mornings"?

John Bradshaw: Who does that?

Julian Archer: Yeah, who does that? And so he, he said, "Yes, Saturday mornings". And Dad's like, oof, that was my only excuse. "Okay, Harry, yeah, we'll come this Saturday. What time? Where at"? And we get all the details. So, because Saturday was the, it was the only day that we actually went to the city as a whole family because we went Saturday mornings and purchased all of our groceries for the next week.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: And so we all pile in the old pickup, we drive down to town, we do all of our grocery shopping at the supermarket, we drive back to the church, and we've got a problem, because our old pickup is old. It's like old, old. And the doors don't lock. And we've got a week's worth of groceries that we can't afford to have stolen.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: What are we going to do? Well, we're obviously, we're just going to have to take them into church. And so we pack up all of our groceries in beer cartons. They're the only cartons that we've got. And so we, we take that, our groceries, we walk into church, Dad, Mum, Kath, and myself, all with boxes of groceries. We walk in. "Where should we put these, Harry"? You know. "Um, uh, under the seat". And so we, we put our groceries under the seat there, and we all go around, and we sit on them because we're not sure... you know, someone might take these groceries away. You know, we want to look after them. And there we are, sitting there in church. Dad would have, you know, a smell of cigarettes, um, alcohol, uh, because he's still drinking way too much.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: Um, we look very different. We're barefoot. We are clothed, but we're barefoot.

John Bradshaw: Barefooted?

Julian Archer: Barefoot. Dad's got a long beard. I've got long hair, even though I'm a boy. You know, it's, we're a hippie family. Very different to everybody else around us in church in the mid-'70s, you know. And I, I give you all those details simply because nobody in that church ever said anything about any of those things.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: They just loved us.

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: They just loved us. They said, "Come on in". And you know, as, as we're sitting there, and we look around over the... and we went back the next week and the next week, and we started to see some things, and we started to go, you know, I wonder why anybody else doesn't have this harmful addiction or, or whatever. And so, what do we do? We ask Harry. We've got a friend who we know and we trust. And Harry explains some of these different things to us, uh, about how to live a better life, how to live a healthier life full of hope and, and that sort of thing. And they loved us to Jesus. Mum and Dad became Christians very soon thereafter.

John Bradshaw: How about that. What happened to Harry?

Julian Archer: Harry lived to, to a ripe old age into his 90s, and he, he passed away. But, you know, Harry used to tell people... he never told us this... but he used to tell people that the Archer family were the stars in his crown.

John Bradshaw: Nice.

Julian Archer: You know, and, and we thank God for Harry, and, of course, now it's up to us to be a Harry to other people and, and tell them the blessing that we were given. And, of course, Harry, uh, had his funeral, and I went to his funeral, as our family did, of course. And it was interesting. I was at the funeral...and this is the best part of 30 years after Harry used to come in and, and buy his loaf of bread... and I met a young lady there, uh, and, well, I got chatting to her at Harry's funeral, and I said, "And where are you from? What do you do? And how did you know Harry"? And she said, "I used to work down at the supermarket down the road".

John Bradshaw: Uh-huh.

Julian Archer: "And Harry used to come in there and buy stuff, like nearly every day".

John Bradshaw: No, come on.

Julian Archer: Yeah. "I would see him buying his things, and even if my queue was the longest queue to come through my checkout, he would wait. He would get on the end of that queue so that he could talk to me".

John Bradshaw: Interesting, eh?

Julian Archer: "Harry was just the most lovely, lovely man, wasn't he"? And I agreed, of course. You know, he changed my life, and I explained the story. And she said, at Harry's funeral she said, "You know, Harry would probably really like it if I became a Christian, wouldn't he"? You know. Isn't it interesting how a legacy goes on?

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: We're just called to be faithful.

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: We're called to love people and let Jesus work with them.

John Bradshaw: That's a wonderful, wonderful story about a man who changed your life. Now, God, God changed your life, but he was used by God, going to that health food store day after day after day after day and just wait for God to open the door.

Julian Archer: Yep.

John Bradshaw: And He did.

Julian Archer: Yep.

John Bradshaw: Fantastic. So, so you became a Christian. Your family became Christian. And, uh, you stay in the bush? Or, or what happened to the health food store? Obviously, the business, you described your mum and dad as serial entrepreneurs, so more business opportunities came along.

Julian Archer: Mmm. Yeah, so one of the things about being hippies and being self-sufficient is that you want to grow all of your own food. And so, we would say, hey, we need an orange tree. We would plant 30 seeds, in the hope that one or two would grow.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: And sometimes 30 would grow.

John Bradshaw: All right.

Julian Archer: And we're like, ah, what are we going to do with the extra 28 trees, you know?

John Bradshaw: Got to sell them, right?

Julian Archer: Got to sell them. And so, we got our old pickup, that faithful pickup. We loaded all these trees onto the back in pots, onto the back of it, drove down to the local freeway, and put up a little sign: Archer's Fruit Trees. Well, the, this turns into, uh, a small business called Archer's Fruit Trees, where it actually has not just a roadside stall, but an actual property with 214 different varieties of fruit and nut trees. And so this business grew there, and people would come from all over the state because they knew that Ray and Delphine would have it. If it wasn't in any other nursery, these guys would have it.

John Bradshaw: Wow, all right.

Julian Archer: But in that process, they, uh, are just becoming... so when they finished the health food store soon after becoming Christians, they start up this, this, uh, nursery, and they go, "We've got to tell people about Jesus".

John Bradshaw: Mm-hmm.

Julian Archer: Because it's just completely changed their lives. And, well, how do you do that? And Dad goes, "Well, I guess I've, I get on a plane, and I go to Egypt, and I take some photos, and then I come back, and I put an ad in the paper saying, 'Come along to the local hall that I'll hire and hear Ray Archer talk about Egypt.'"

John Bradshaw: He, he was becoming a lay evangelist.

Julian Archer: Yeah, because that's all he knew.

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: That's how he had met Christ.

John Bradshaw: Yup.

Julian Archer: And he's like, well, that's what I have to do. And so that's what we did. And Mum, what did she do? Vegetarian cooking programs.

John Bradshaw: Fantastic.

Julian Archer: Okay?

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: And so we hired the local hall, and we said, "Come along and hear the Archer Report". You know, big name, you know, "the Archer Report," oooh! It's really just this hippie who's found Jesus, you know. And, and people would come along.

John Bradshaw: They came out, eh?

Julian Archer: They came; they came. And they, they became Christians. It was, it was incredible, you know. And Dad would say, "Oh, here's a picture of me on a camel in front of the pyramids, and, you know, this was cool". And, you know, just this very personal story of telling people about the land where Jesus went to as, as a child, and Israel and all the rest of it. But we finally ran out of towns. So we had done all the towns that we could reach from where our fruit tree nursery was.

John Bradshaw: So your dad was pretty serious about this?

Julian Archer: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. This was, this was like every Sunday night.

John Bradshaw: And he was financing this himself?

Julian Archer: Yeah, yeah, from the, from the nursery business.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: And so he, uh, and Mum, they ran out of towns, and they're like, "We've still got to tell people about Jesus. We will have to go further afield, but we can't because we're tied down to this business". So they said, "We're going to have to sell this business". And then they go, "But if we sell the business, we're going to run out of money". Hmm. And, and so they go, "Well, what we need to do is we need to choose one type of fruit or nut tree that we can sell in the, the future, and that'll keep us going financially". But they've got a catalog with, you know, 214 different fruit and nut trees. How do you choose which one might have a future? Well, for Christians, new Christians, it's very easy. They just get down on their knees, with their catalog and a pen, and they go, "Lord, is it apples? No. Bananas? No. Cherimoyas? No. Durians? No, it wouldn't be durians".

John Bradshaw: Do you know I think it could be?

Julian Archer: You think it could be durians?

John Bradshaw: Oh, yeah, man.

Julian Archer: You're a durian lover?

John Bradshaw: Oh, yes! Who isn't?

Julian Archer: Yeah, okay. So they, they go through this list. Now, now, it wasn't that God was speaking to them from the sky or anything. But God had given them experience in their lives. They understood these different fruit and nut tree varieties, and they realized that there is one that has more potential than others, and that's the olive tree. And so they keep these olive trees. They sell the nursery. They put the olive trees on a trailer behind the car, and we head off to another, another bigger city, so we've got more people that we can tell. Plant the olive trees in the back yard and start telling people.

John Bradshaw: Hey, it's interesting. We know where this goes, because it, the business becomes successful. Uh, it's okay that we know that. We'll, we'll continue down that road. But look what, look what your family had done. Your mum and dad said the business is so we can finance...

Julian Archer: Yep.

John Bradshaw: ...evangelism, right? And then there's no wonder God blessed the business, and they got it into their heads early: Business success equals investment in ministry.

Julian Archer: Absolutely.

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: Yep, yep.

John Bradshaw: So they adopted or they chose olives?

Julian Archer: Yeah.

John Bradshaw: And what was the olive industry like in Australia at the time?

Julian Archer: Ah, there wasn't one. Basically 99 percent of our olive products were imported. And so it was a very unusual choice.

John Bradshaw: Yeah?

Julian Archer: Uh, and they, I guess they looked at the climate. They saw the opportunities for olive groves and that sort of thing, uh, but didn't really know very much about it. So, it was, it was very much a God-led decision. It wasn't, it wasn't the obvious thing for them to decide, but that's what God led them to, and so they did that.

John Bradshaw: And they were successful?

Julian Archer: Yeah, so they, well, they kept doing these missions, uh, and then the thing was they would run out of territory there, and then they would have to move again. So they would dig up these olive trees...

John Bradshaw: Really?

Julian Archer: ...and move on.

John Bradshaw: Relocate them?

Julian Archer: Yeah, and they're like, we're going to kill these trees.

John Bradshaw: Yeah?

Julian Archer: You know, this is our retirement plan. And we're going to kill it. And so they bought a little farm, and they planted these trees on the farm and said, okay, rest in peace. You can stay there now. We're going to go. And they headed off doing lay evangelism. And, uh, they didn't have much money. They were, they were really, you know, hand-to-mouth because they were so generous. Whenever they got money, they gave it away, and you know.... Um, they moved to Sydney, and to help support themselves financially, they decided to sell small olive trees out of their back yard. And, uh, and that was the beginning of a nursery that we turned into a company called Olives Australia. And, uh, that was the next stage.

John Bradshaw: You, you can't separate from this faithfulness to God and activity in mission, commitment to mission, and the blessing of God followed that.

Julian Archer: Yeah.

John Bradshaw: Hey, that's fantastic. Now, we've just got a moment before we go to the break. Your participation in the family business was, was just a natural thing? It was always going to happen, or you weighed it up? How did you get involved in, in business yourself? You, I mean, you could have become a pilot or an engineer or, or a hippie or, or anything. How did you choose business?

Julian Archer: I guess I, it was somewhat in my blood. You know, I grew up in it, so I was always working for Dad, and that was just the worst thing. You know, as, as a kid working for your dad, oh, man, I, I could work for anybody else, but working for your parents, you know, oh, yeah. As it turned out, I then went off to college and did a teaching degree to become a teacher. I graduated from that on a Sunday, and on Monday I went back into business. So, so back to the olives. So Mum and Dad at that stage were still selling these olive trees in the back yard, and I said, "Hey, I'm about to get married," to my wonderful wife Melinda. "How about we go and live on that property where those olive trees are growing and run the business from there"? And that was the next stage in the journey.

John Bradshaw: Yeah, the next stage of the journey... well, let's jump ahead at least one stage... is that you decided to pull back from business because, uh, business or money or your priorities or your focus was starting to strangle you spiritually, and you realized that.

Julian Archer: Mmm.

John Bradshaw: So, when we come back, let's talk about your turnaround, how you met God, and how that's impacted your life and the lives of others as well. We'll talk about that with Julian Archer in just a moment.

John Bradshaw: Welcome back. My guest is Julian Archer from Queensland, Australia, who's dedicated his life to ministries, and not only an international speaker but an author and a successful businessman who backed away from business to dedicate his life wholeheartedly to serving God. Not that one cannot wholeheartedly serve God in business, but for you it became a real challenge that you decided was detrimental to your spiritual well-being. Walk us through that.

Julian Archer: Yeah, so, so we started up this, this little business with a big name: Olives Australia. God had led us to the olive tree. It was quite clear from, from the way that we were led into that industry that God knew what was coming. Within four years of starting this little, tiny business, it was the largest olive tree nursery in the world. And we had a number of olive businesses all related to the olive industry. We had equipment, businesses, olive oil, consulting. We ran tours in different parts of the world for olive growers, all in four years. It just went zoom...like that. Then, uh, my wife and I spent a bit of time doing some humanitarian work, but while we were doing that, my father found a thing called olive leaf extract, which is a herbal medicine. And he decided that the world needed this. Long story short, within three years of my wife and I getting back from working in another country, we were exporting this product to 25 countries around the world. And we could see God's hand in so many actions of those businesses. Not just the founding of them and choosing olives, but in shipping issues, in manufacturing issues, in marketing issues, all the rest of it. And so we could, we could just see God growing this business like this, and, of course, the, most of the profits from the business were going out into His work. But there was a very interesting thing happening inside my heart. And normally you would think that if you're, if you're in this, and everything is going so well, and the blessings are happening, and God's making us rich and all that sort of stuff, the relationship with God is going to be going whoo-hoo, you know, we're on our way up.

John Bradshaw: Sure.

Julian Archer: But the reality was that the more I was blessed, the less I felt that I needed God, the prouder I became of what I had done. In biblical terms, I became a bit of a Pharisee because I started to become quite judgmental of other people who weren't as successful. They must not be doing things right, or they mustn't be as good as me. All this sort of stuff started happening inside my heart. And my relationship with Jesus, my "first love," as it's called in the Bible, started to go like this.

John Bradshaw: When did you become or how did you become aware that that's what was happening? Because I imagine that could be kind of intoxicating. You can tell yourself you're okay when you're really not. How did you know? What did you see about yourself that said, hey, this is an alarm bell actually here?

Julian Archer: Mmm. Yeah, look, the first alarm bell that I, that I see, uh, and had saw at that time is my time with Jesus gets cropped. So my morning time, morning study time, whenever it is in the day, it, it starts to get shorter and shorter and shorter because I just don't have the time. And I don't have the priority... I don't make it a priority. I put the business and the emails and, and all the rest ahead. So, you know, wake up in the morning, first thing you check is communications that are coming from overnight. And we're exporting to 25 countries. It doesn't stop. It's 24/7 and good news, bad news, and that's, that's the first thing that, that enters my head. Instead of, "Lord, thank You for this new day. Can we spend time together? I just really want to know more about You, and I want to learn to love You more". It's all about money. It's all about what issues happened overnight.

John Bradshaw: Somewhere back there you said, "I got to do something about this"?

Julian Archer: Yep.

John Bradshaw: How easy was it to come to the decision that you did to really to back away from being a full-time businessman? That's a, that's a pretty radical decision. I think it needs to be said: You're not advocating that everybody should do this.

Julian Archer: No.

John Bradshaw: No, no, you're not saying...again, we talked about this earlier... you're not against wealth. You're not...to be rich isn't to be bad or anything like that. That's, that's all okay. But it was damaging you spiritually.

Julian Archer: Mmm.

John Bradshaw: This must have been, I would expect, a, a huge decision, maybe a frightening decision to say, "That's it. I'm not going to put all my energies into business and wealth".

Julian Archer: Mmm. Yeah. I, I mean, we're already supporting a number of different, you know, ministries and things around the world. Um, and so it became a bit more of a decision of, you know, I need to spend more time doing those things than these things. Uh, from a divine leading point of view, my mother had retired, my father was saying, "Hey, I think I'll retire, too," and they asked me what do I want to do. Do I want to keep breeding this...sorry... running this business? Um, which is like, you know, holding a tiger by the ears. You can't hang on. You can't let go. And I was like, "No, you know, in five years' time I don't see myself here. I see myself somewhere else, eh"? This is messing with me, you know, in ways that I don't really understand yet, and I, and I really don't like where it's taking me, what it's making me. Uh, so I see myself somewhere else. So we actually sold that last business, uh, right on the eve of the global financial crisis, late 2007, as, as we're heading into 2008.

John Bradshaw: The timing was good.

Julian Archer: God's timing, yeah. And we, uh, we basically sort of walked away from it. I stayed on for two years to help the new owners. And they've got a very good business, you know. To this day, it's still running beautifully for them. So that's, that's great. You know, we're very happy about that. But I knew that I needed to make a, a life change, a, a major shift. Because I had tried to do... well, I'll do 20 percent less in business and 20 percent more on the other things and all this sort of stuff. It, it didn't work for me. My personality? I, I mean, boots and all. Wherever I am, I've got to be in there. And so I couldn't divide my time as I would have liked.

John Bradshaw: Speaking of boots and all, you've embraced ministry pretty wholeheartedly. Now, you, you travel around the world speaking. It, it takes you to some very interesting places. You meet some very interesting people, not only Christians, from all walks of life, and it's given you great insight into the challenges that money can bring. Obviously, it can bring, bring blessing. But we, we remember what Paul wrote to Timothy: "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil". So, your book is really... uh, the title's fantastic: "Help! I've Been Blessed"! Uh, what brought about, about the writing of the book?

Julian Archer: It was about that time with the selling of the business and that sort of thing. You know, we were already financially secure, and then all of a sudden there's this big business sale that comes in on top of that, and...it's everybody's dream.

John Bradshaw: Sure.

Julian Archer: And, and mine, too, to some degree. But I knew that it was just compounding my problem. And so, I just sat down. I said, "Lord, I've got a bit of time now. I, I've got to knock this out. We have to sort this out". And I just went back over my life, over the battles that I had faced, this faith versus finance battle, looking at it from all different angles to try and work out what the solution was. And I came to some realizations, as I went through that, that led me to actually be converted, to, to a heart conversion. It, but that was never meant to be a book. That was just my notes of, of where things were at. But then I thought, why don't I leave this for my sons, because then they won't make the same spiritual mistakes that I've made. And so I sort of put it into a chapterish sort of format, short stories, very easy to read. And then at, when I had done that, I was convicted: Julian, you've got to make this a book. And I was like, no way, this is too personal. Uh, this is not going to be a book. And so for two years I sat on it and said, no, no book, no book. This is for me and my sons. That's it. Uh, and then...

John Bradshaw: God had other ideas?

Julian Archer: God had other ideas. The Holy Spirit keeps prompting, and I went, "Okay, Lord, I'll put it out there". In the meantime, I had been converted. And it, it's funny, when you're converted, that your reputation and stuff doesn't matter anymore.

John Bradshaw: Sure.

Julian Archer: You know, you, you go, Lord, You're my defense. This is my story; this is where with... well, it's whether where You led me or where I allowed myself to go on my journey to You, and maybe it will help some other people who are fighting the same battle.

John Bradshaw: So, Jesus talked about this, you know. It's so hard for a rich man to get into heaven... a rich woman, for that matter, a rich person... harder than it is for a camel to get through the eye of a needle. So, clearly, lots of people are facing what you faced. And even if it's the woman earning minimum wage at a fast food restaurant, she's plotting her course. A college student who's plotting her course through life, and money is a major factor, right? Because you've got to have money for retirement and money to raise a family. It's not just the wealthy that deal with money becoming a god or, or, or this thing getting out of proportion. You've got a whole book here. It's, it's a wonderful book, and it deals with some sound principles and solid advice, but share some counsel, in the few minutes we have, with people who are saying, "You know, it's out of focus in my life. It's out of whack in my life. I've got to get it back". Where do they start? What do they do?

Julian Archer: The, the natural instinctive place to start is to go, "Well, I've got all these desires for wealth and riches and all the rest in my heart, and I've got to get rid of them". And normally those desires come about in the form of I really want this sort of a car, or I'd like to live in that sort of a house, or go on these sorts or vacations. And so our natural response is, "I need to stop wanting expensive stuff, and then I'll, and then it'll all be sorted out, and my relationship with God will be fine again". I tried that. I tried it. And, and look, I, I've got to be honest. There were times when God gave me the strength and, and took those desires out of my heart for whatever that item was.

John Bradshaw: Sure.

Julian Archer: But I was reading in Ezekiel one morning as I'm going through this whole battle in, in my mind. I don't normally read in Ezekiel. Yeah, Ezekiel's not the place I hang on for morning study.

John Bradshaw: I don't think too many people spend too much time there.

Julian Archer: That's right. But here I was in Ezekiel 36, and I'm at the end of my rope, when it comes to this faith versus finance battle. I have tried everything that I know how. And I'm about to give up. I'm like, "Lord, this is a battle I can't win. And I'm sorry, but I can't win it. I'm trying to clean my heart, and it's not working". Ezekiel 36, verses 25 to 27, they just burst out of the page at me. I had what I call an epiphany, you know, a lightbulb moment.

John Bradshaw: Sure.

Julian Archer: And I read it. And it's Jesus, God there, saying, "Julian, I want to give you a new heart".

John Bradshaw: A new heart.

Julian Archer: A new heart. "You don't have to keep trying to clean this old one. The heart you're born with, man, the very fabric of that heart is selfishness. You can clean it as clean as you want".

John Bradshaw: It's still...

Julian Archer: It's still filthy; that's right.

John Bradshaw: That's right.

Julian Archer: He says, "I want to give you a new one. I want to take that heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I'm going to wash, I'm going to clean you". You know, all this beautiful language. And I'm like, really? You know, for me? Why didn't I see that earlier? That could have saved like...yeah. My initial response is, God, that could have saved 15 years...

John Bradshaw: That's right.

Julian Archer: ...of pain, you know, of this whole battle.

John Bradshaw: Yeah.

Julian Archer: And, and now I see it? And I'm, and I'm, by this time, I'm on the carpet, on the floor, crying. I'm saying, "Lord, I want that. I don't even how that would happen. Uh, but I, I need a heart attack". "I need a new heart".

John Bradshaw: Do a...

Julian Archer: Do a heart transplant, yeah. "Do whatever it takes". And that was it. That was the new journey. And from that point forward, things got... I won't say it was super easy, and, and, you know, the battle was over, victory, you know; ever since it's been fine. No, but I knew that the victory had been won.

John Bradshaw: Sure. And it's a journey, isn't it?

Julian Archer: It's a journey.

John Bradshaw: Continually growing.

Julian Archer: It's a day-by-day journey. Every day is still a battle. My battle is not so much with financing and, and those sorts of issues anymore. God's, God's been in, and He's slayed that dragon. But there's other things, you know. The...Satan doesn't stop.

John Bradshaw: No.

Julian Archer: Satan doesn't go, "Oh, look, Julian was converted. I'm totally powerless now. I won't even try".

John Bradshaw: That's right. "I'll give up on him".

Julian Archer: He just keeps coming.

John Bradshaw: Keeps coming, tries and tries even harder.

Julian Archer: That's right.

John Bradshaw: But we remember, "Greater is He that is in you"...

Julian Archer: Exactly.

John Bradshaw: ..."than he that is in the world".

Julian Archer: Exactly. And "He who has begun a good work in you," Philippians 1:6...

John Bradshaw: He's going to perform it.

Julian Archer: ..."will perform it".

John Bradshaw: That's right.

Julian Archer: "Will". "Will," not "might," whatever. He will.

John Bradshaw: That's right.

Julian Archer: And we've just got to stay on our knees.

John Bradshaw: Yeah, amen. Hey, this has been great. We've got just a brief period of time. Parents...I think it's really difficult, and we've seen this in many, many, many families, rich kids. You know, they can grow up. You know, it's not their fault they've got hot-and-cold running-everything.

Julian Archer: Mm-hmm.

John Bradshaw: They can grow up with their priorities kind of out of whack. Again, we're not against wealth. God's certainly not against wealth. God blesses people with great wealth, primarily so that they can raise their standard of...

Julian Archer: Giving.

John Bradshaw: ...giving, rather than their standard of...

Julian Archer: Living.

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: Yeah.

John Bradshaw: How do we transmit this to our kids? Give me that briefly.

Julian Archer: We've got to do it two ways. One, we've got, we've got to be an example. We've got to let our kids be involved in our giving so that they understand the importance that we place on that, as parents, on, on sharing and, and not being greedy and that sort of thing. So, we've got to help them to do the same thing. We've got to teach them how to do that. Uh, however, we also know that the environment in which we raise them will have a greater impact on them than even our example. And so we've got to be really, really careful. If we, if we give our kids a jet-setting life, that's what they're going to want. And they're going to put everything they can into having that and maintaining that because that's what they've been raised with, and so when they leave home, they're still going to want it, and they're just going to go for gold, literally...

John Bradshaw: Right.

Julian Archer: ...so that they can maintain that life. So, I, I encourage families to simplify. You know, simplify. If, if your kids are living that, that hot-and-cold running-everything life in this massive mansion... or, or it doesn't even have to be massive; it's just going to be bigger than other people on the street. You know, that's, it's one of those curious things, but, and if you've taken them on expensive holidays and, and all this different stuff, I'd say, "Hey, how about we just simplify a bit here"? So that...and explain that to our children: Guys, as we look at Jesus, the, the Man that we are following as Christians, as we look at Christ, we see a simple life. We see a humble, serving life. And we want to do more of that. And so we're thinking of downsizing a few things. We're thinking of downsizing, you know, that holiday we have in Aspen every year, or it could just be that holiday that we have down the road that's a bit nicer than other people's holidays, you know. We're going to pull back on that. And we're going to actually downsize our home, and we're going to downsize a few things so that we can help more people. And hey, kids, check, check this out. This place sent us this thing about these people who are in real need. And do you think we could give up some things to help them? You know. You guys in on this? Make it a family thing where you all come together and start to simplify some things, reduce some costs, help other people, and that way it's going to help our children as well.

John Bradshaw: Julian, I really appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time.

Julian Archer: It's been a pleasure, John.

John Bradshaw: God bless you, man. And God bless your ministry. I really appreciate it.

Julian Archer: Thank you.

John Bradshaw: He's Julian Archer. His ministry is Faith Versus Finance. The book is "Help! I've Been Blessed"!
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