David Reagan - America Under Judgment
Is America doomed? Has God already delivered us from judgment to destruction? What hope, if any, do we have for our nation? The Bible teaches that God never pours out His wrath on a nation without first sending remedial judgments and prophetic voices to warn of God’s impending judgment and to call the nation to repentance. One of those prophetic voices is with us today. He is Jonathan Cahn, the author of the best-selling book, “The Harbinger.” Stay tuned for an in-depth interview.
David Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus, our Blessed Hope and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. My colleague, Nathan Jones, and I have a very special guests with us today. He is Jonathan Cahn, the author of the best-selling book, “The Harbinger,” and the author of a new book, “The Mystery of the Shemitah.” Welcome to our program Jonathan, we are glad to have you.
Jonathan Cahn: Great to be with you Dave.
David Reagan: You know you are in God’s promise land here in Texas.
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah, up to now I thought it was Israel, but now we’ll replace the theology here, Texas.
David Reagan: Well we’ve got to straighten you out.
Nathan Jones: Good to have you on Rabbi Cahn.
Jonathan Cahn: Nathan, great to be here.
Nathan Jones: Well Jonathan is the spiritual leader of the Beth Israel Worship Center in Wayne, New Jersey. In one of our issues of our magazine here in 2013, we featured Jonathan here on the cover and he was labeled as the prophetic voice God has anointed to warn our nation of impending judgment. And as always been the case anyone who historically speaks out in prophetic manner calling people for repentance, Jonathan has of course been severely attacked. In our program today we are going to discuss his basic message and also ask him about some of the accusations that have been hurled against him.
David Reagan: Well, Jonathan, welcome to our program. You have written a best-selling book that probably everybody viewing this has at least heard about if they haven’t read, called “The Harbinger.” And now you have a new book out called, “The Mystery of the Shemitah,” is that the correct way to pronounce that?
Jonathan Cahn: Yes, you did it perfectly.
David Reagan: Ok, and I think your writing has impacted a lot of people. But I tell you what has impacted me the most and what has impacted me the most was the incredible speech that you presented at the Presidential Inaugural Prayer Breakfast in January of 2013. Unfortunately, the President was not there, I wish he had been. But it was a fantastic speech, and folks, I just want to point out that this is a speech that you can get on the Internet, just type in Jonathan Cahn Presidential Inaugural Breakfast and you must watch this, it is all over YouTube, and people can see it. So, in that speech you made this comment, “The city on the hill,” speaking of America, “has grown dark. Its lamp has grown dim. Its glory is fading. For God is not mocked. No nation can war against the very source of its blessing and expect those blessings to remain.” In just a moment, I want you to explain to us what in the world you meant by those comments.
Nathan Jones: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy and our interview with Jonathan Cahn. Now Jonathan, before we started Dave read a statement you made at the 2013 Inaugural Prayer Breakfast and he said the city on the hill, you called this nation a city on a hill, you proclaimed we were no longer a beacon of light to the world and that our lamp has grown dim, and our glory is fading. Can you explain those remarks you made at the prayer breakfast?
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah, the city on the hill is the first real symbol ever given to America before the America flag, before the eagle, this was given by John Winthrop when he wrote a famous sermon right at the beginning of America saying that we shall be as a city on a hill, quoting from Messiah, saying you shall be a city on a hill. And so America was dedicated back then to God by the Puritans. And he said if we follow God we will be the most blessed people on earth. If we turn away the judgments of God will come. And people forget the next part of what he said. So, America in many ways it has been the beacon of the Gospel to the world and God has blessed it because of that. And you know it has been blessed as they said. And as Israel was blessed, any nation, you know righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach. We are now rapidly turning from God. America is now the greatest exporter of pornography in the world, I mean darkness. It is accelerating, you know America’s apostasy is accelerating even in the last few days as we are watching it is happening here. We are opposing God’s ways, we are really holding this up to in His face. So no nation can be blessed by God as it has been, turn away from God, defy His ways continuously and have those blessings removed. God is a patient God, but that will only happen up to a certain point. So, we are watching in a sense the city on the hill greatly darkening where it is actually at war with its own foundation, at war with its light that was the light of America and we are standing in danger of judgment.
David Reagan: At the beginning of the program I mentioned that the Bible seems to indicate that God never pours out His wrath without putting remedial judgments and raising prophetic voices to warn a nation. And certainly you are one of those prophetic voices today together with others that I could name. But what about remedial judgments? Do you think God is placing remedial judgments on this nation?
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah, well that is how the “Harbinger,” really began.
David Reagan: There you go.
Jonathan Cahn: That you know one of the classic signs of warning that God gives in the Bible, and it happens more than once, it happens with the Northern Kingdom, happens with the Southern Kingdom. Years before the judgment or the full judgment there was a breaching of the nation’s hedge of protection, it is a strike that happens in the land. With ancient Israel in the Northern Kingdom it happened in 732 BC when the Assyrian army was allowed to ravage the land. In the Southern Kingdom it happened with Babylon in 605 as Babylon came in before the great judgment. With the Northern Kingdom it was about ten years between the first strike and then that final judgment. With the Southern Kingdom it was about 19 years, so there’s not a formula, but there is a pattern. So, with America we have had, we have experienced the harbinger begins with that first strike that happens when America’s hedge of protection is removed. When 9/11 comes it is a shaking of America, it is a wakeup call to America. And I think most believers even felt that. What happens is people flocked to churches and it looked as though there was going to be a revival if you remember. People were flocking, everything was God for three weeks, and then after that it just ended because there was not repentance. Without repentance there can be no revival. So instead of growing better we got worse.
David Reagan: There was also a surge of patriotism. In fact we saw bumper stickers everywhere that said, God bless America. God Bless America. And my wife one day said, “That’s wrong.” And I said what do you mean? “He’s already blessed America. We need a bumper sticker that says, “America Bless God.” And she designed one and we printed it, yes.
Jonathan Cahn: Absolutely, you know I heard of that and I’ve said that. I didn’t know it came from your wife. Truly, truly that is exactly it. And the thing is that what happens is if you don’t come back, what happened with Israel when they had their first warning strike with this attack they turned away, they grew more defiant instead of repentant. So, what happened is these harbingers, or these remedial judgments, or these signs of a nation in danger of judgment start coming one after another. And what happened with America is that we have grown worse, far worse than before that. So, that is what happens when you reject God, that’s what happens. So, in the same harbingers; there were identified nine harbingers of warning of judgment that happened to ancient Israel, are now reappearing in America. They are now on America soil, some have involved American leaders even the President. That’s why I think the Presidential Inaugural had something to do with that. He keeps calling me to Washington now for some reason. So I believe that without any question we are on progression toward judgment now. Even if you didn’t know about the harbingers, it’s clear, it’s clear.
David Reagan: Yes.
Jonathan Cahn: But the fact is they are reappearing. And it is one after another. It is happen in precision some have happened in New York City where we are. Some have happened in Washington. And since the book, “The Harbinger” came out it has continued, they have not stopped these manifestations of signs of warning have continued, just as America has accelerated in its apostasy. So, we are in danger.
Nathan Jones: Do you see that judgments then for the nations that Israel is the model for the world?
Jonathan Cahn: Yes.
Nathan Jones: So that any nation would fall under the same falling of judgments if people as a nation reject Him?
Jonathan Cahn: Well, it can. Yeah, the thing is that God is consistent number one, God is the same God He doesn’t change. And number two the Bible says what was written to Israel is for our– you know it is for us. So, in other words that is the one model we have for anything. He dealt with Israel. Israel is the center of His purposes. But anytime you hear a message preached it is generally something that happened from Israel that applies to all of our lives. So, we see that and it’s not only Israel God also judged other nations back then. But Israel is the template of course.
Nathan Jones: But there are just so many parallels between us and Israel.
Jonathan Cahn: It’s amazing.
David Reagan: And you have pointed those out over and over. I have over the years too in some of the books that I’ve written to point out that they had great spiritual leaders. I’m talking about Judah in particular.
Jonathan Cahn: Yes.
David Reagan: They had great spiritual leaders. They had prosperity. They had safety. God blessed them in so many ways, just as He has done us.
Jonathan Cahn: Yes.
David Reagan: But, it ultimately led to pride, and to rebellion, and that is exactly what is happening to us. You know Jonathan there are people– I run across Christians who actually think God sits on the throne wrapped in an America flag. And they say, oh, God would never touch us. He would never touch us. What did they say to Jeremiah? God lives in our temple, He will never touch us.
Jonathan Cahn: Yes, yes.
David Reagan: Let me tell you if He will destroy Jerusalem and His very Temple; He will destroy the United States of America.
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah.
David Reagan: And people need to know that.
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah, there is something special, I mean there are two extremes one is to say that there is nothing special about America and that’s not true.
David Reagan: Oh, that’s not true.
Jonathan Cahn: But on the other hand to say that America is Israel, or that the main thing is patriotism, that’s not it the main thing is God. There is only one God. Even patriotism can become a god.
David Reagan: That’s right.
Jonathan Cahn: So, the point is that when God says that there is no nation– exactly what you said if Israel itself which was built by God and the Temple. You know the Lord said to Jeremiah you keep on saying this Temple, this Temple, I’ll destroy this Temple. He said to Ezekiel you know your wife is going to die, and what God was saying is that this is how much this is hurting me. But this has to happen you know to Israel. The thing is that if that happened we certainly cannot say we are exempt, we are in danger. In fact it’s the opposite, and that is that to much that is given much is required.
David Reagan: That’s right. That’s right.
Jonathan Cahn: The more we have been blessed the more we are accountable and the more severe.
David Reagan: Absolutely. Let me read you a passage from the Old Testament and get your response to it, this to me is the two of the saddest verses in the Old Testament, “And the Lord, the God of their fathers sent word to them again, and again by His messengers because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they continually mocked the messengers of God. Despised His Words, scoffed at His prophets until the wrath of God arose against His people until there was no remedy.”
Jonathan Cahn: Yes, here He is sending and pleading, and when you reject the pleading, when you reject the warning there is nothing left. And you know that is the principle that when 9/11 happened in rejecting any kind of coming back to God we have so descended so much worse. So much worse.
David Reagan: Yes.
Jonathan Cahn: And so therefore you know people say, well if the harbingers are appearing is there any hope? And I say it is the opposite, the fact that there are harbingers, or there is warnings, why would God waste His warning? Up to the point He’s warning there is hope. You know but if you reject all the warnings then there is no hope.
Nathan Jones: Now folks ask sometimes when they read your book they say, well, that was about Israel because Israel was in a covenant relationship with God.
Jonathan Cahn: Right.
Nathan Jones: When the founding Puritans, the Founding Fathers of this country called it a city on the hill, were they proclaiming that this nation was also in a covenant relationship with God, and therefore we fall under the same blessings and curses as Israel? Or do you see that we were supposed to be as a Christian example that is how we fell under the blessings and curses?
Jonathan Cahn: Well, a few things one is that the Puritans did believe that they covenanted with God, they made a covenant.
David Reagan: Absolutely.
Jonathan Cahn: We can’t say what God did on His side. With Israel we know in the Bible there is one nation that God says I have made a covenant with. But they did, you know did God honor that I believe He did. I mean they dedicated America and they said that this was going to happen and He blessed America. You know the thing is that, so regardless– it is almost like that was all there and there was a real parallel with America and Israel not one replaces, not that one is Israel but they even said, you know they even saw America as after the pattern of Israel. They at one point considered Hebrew as the language.
David Reagan: That’s right, absolutely.
Jonathan Cahn: You know Thanksgiving is the Feast of Tabernacles, actually its right now, it is the Feast of Tabernacles.
David Reagan: Right now.
Jonathan Cahn: You cannot take that thing away, it’s there, it’s imbedded in our DNA, it’s there.
David Reagan: Yes.
Jonathan Cahn: So, the patterns regardless of the issue of covenant, that’s not foundational to this. But the point is, the point is that they did dedicate and there is this pattern. And God has blessed and God is consistent with His dealings. And He has blessed us as He blessed Israel. And you know the principles work, I mean they are there. So, therefore, in a sense any nation that has been blessed by God and turns away and defies God is subject to judgment, any nation. But, the fact that we have so many parallels to Israel makes it even more. And the fact that John Winthrop literally said that the same judgments that came on Israel would come on us. Well the harbinger is saying that there is a replaying, it’s not that we are Israel but there is a replaying, God is consistent there is a template of judgment of national judgment and it’s happening not generally, it is happening specifically.
Nathan Jones: Yes.
David Reagan: Well, one of the things that has really astounded me is the speed at which America has begun to secularize and paganize it’s just on an exponential curve. Who would have ever have believed like 20 years ago that we would have a president who every June would issue a proclamation of the celebration of sexual perversion? And yet President Obama has done that every June.
Jonathan Cahn: And it says at the bottom after he says we are to celebrate that at the bottom it says in the year of our Lord.
David Reagan: You know I got so upset I would write him every year and of course I wouldn’t get any response except an IRS review. But nonetheless I finally decided to try sarcasm so the last time he did it I wrote to him and I said, “Sir, you are supposed to be a man who believes in equality for all and so forth. Why are you discriminating in this proclamation? Why aren’t you celebrating– you are celebrating lesbianism, homosexuality, bi-sexual, and transgender. Why don’t you add prostitutes? Why don’t you add those who have sex with animals? Why don’t you add those who are adulterers, and those who are fornicators? We might as well celebrate it all?” I didn’t get a response to that either.
Jonathan Cahn: You didn’t, well, wait until next year. Maybe it will come out you never know.
Nathan Jones: Well, do you believe then that the United States since we have removed God out of our school systems, out of our government and everything? And if we follow the pattern of Israel are we now here at Romans 1:24 where it says, “Therefore God delivered them over to the cravings of their hearts to sexual impurity so that their bodies were degraded among themselves. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worship something created instead of the Creator who is praised forever. Amen.” And then it goes on to say how worse and worse and worse they get.
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah, well the principle is already in effect.
Nathan Jones: Already in effect.
Jonathan Cahn: It begins with them turning away from God, they are not worshipping they are going after the creation instead of the Creator. Then it says He gives them over, then comes sexual immorality.
David Reagan: That’s right.
Jonathan Cahn: We are in that. The pattern of ancient Israel as you said they were blessed, then they sought the blessings instead of the Blesser. Then in that driving God out of their culture, we’ve done that, it’s already been happening the 60’s the 70’s driving Him out. And then they start calling what is evil good and what is good evil, they go right together. The more a nation calls what is evil good, it will call what is good like believers and God, evil.
Nathan Jones: Yeah.
Jonathan Cahn: And then it started promoting sexual immorality, we are in that. They also started lifting up their children as sacrifices, you know to Baal and Molech. Well people say how can you compare that with America? Well America has not lifted up thousands of children, it has lifted up millions of children on the altar or convenience and has killed them, I mean over 50 million children. You know where God says you have blood on your hands, how can I hear you? So if that’s not judgment, if that doesn’t cry out for judgment nothing does. We have blasphemed God.
David Reagan: That’s right. You know one thing I wanted to ask you about is this: people are always asking me do you think there is any hope for revival? Can we have revival? And I say well of course there is hope for it. In fact there is even an example of it in the history of Judah, Manasseh was the worst king that they had and they had a tremendous revival right after that with Josiah. But, the moment Josiah died it had become so ingrain in the fabric of the nation that they immediately turned back to their paganism and God took care of the nation.
Jonathan Cahn: Yes. Yes, we have there are different templates, I mean you have that which the judgment was forestalled because of Josiah and a turning. You know you have Nineveh totally saved. You have others, you have Sodom there was nothing, it just wasn’t there. Yeah, if I look at the culture. If I look at my own understanding I don’t see any hope. How do you turn this around? But, with God, God is always greater than that. But, what I do believe is going to happen, and from this template and He’s following it I do believe we are going to have a great shaking of this nation. I believe there is going to be a gigantic shaking. I believe that it will effect out economy, it will collapse, I believe there will be a financial collapse, and I believe that it will be more than that. Because the pattern is that it escalates. Just as the apostasy escalates, you have 9/11 I believe that was just a foreshadow.
Nathan Jones: Money is our God, right?
Jonathan Cahn: Well that is part of it. You know, yes. You know so the thing I believe that– people say well if there is shaking how is there hope? I believe that it is the opposite, only if there is a shaking to me can there be hope. See most of us came to the Lord because of shaking.
David Reagan: You’ve got that right.
Jonathan Cahn: Same with nations. So I believe you say well will it be judgment or revival? I believe it can be both. I believe it could be judgment and yet out of that there will be people turning to the Lord, a remnant. Those who turn there can be revival. So that to me that is at this point our only hope. I believe that is going to happen. And I believe that God’s will is that through the shaking and through this that there will be revival and salvation among those who turn.
David Reagan: Yes.
Jonathan Cahn: But it’s going to take that. We have grown so deaf that we are so deaf that God has to shout it out.
David Reagan: Well, one of the things that concerns me is the way in which Christians have been marginalized.
Jonathan Cahn: Yes.
David Reagan: I mean I had Carl Gallups on this program, I think you know Carl.
Jonathan Cahn: Yes.
David Reagan: And we were talking about the fact that what he and I believe the core of our Christian belief was the core of Christianity just 25-30 years ago. Now we are considered to be fanatics on the margin because we believe in the literal meaning of the Bible and this sort of thing.
Jonathan Cahn: Yes, this is exactly what happened to Israel and that’s what’s happening here. You had the people who were in times past would have been the heroes, prophets, heroes. All of a sudden they become the marginal people. They become those who are persecuted. When you lift up the prophets of Baal they became the center piece of culture, they had been on the extreme, they had been on the fringe, they had been in the dark now they are lifted up. And the opposite is then the culture will seek to put believers in the dark, they started persecuting the prophets, persecuting Elijah. So Ahab goes to Elijah and says, you troubler of Israel, and Elijah refuses to be redefined by Ahab, he says, no, no you are the troubler of Israel I’m following God you departed from Him. And that’s very important we can’t let the culture redefine us.
David Reagan: There you go.
Jonathan Cahn: The point is that is exactly the case to the exact degree that the nation or culture enshrines darkness and calls it light, they will call the light darkness. Every time darkness or immorality is accepted, righteousness is persecuted.
David Reagan: And the thing that is so disturbing about all of that is the number of Christian leaders who get right in bed with it because they want the approval of society.
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah, or that’s right because now the cost is greater. Now if someone says something their neck is stuck out, you know nobody wants to do that, and then you get persecuted. But if nobody does that then the thing is lost, if nobody stands up. The thing is there is a lot of also another level of pastors and leaders who just don’t want to talk about it. They will say, ok, we can’t say anything anymore and you see this. We are in trouble if we do not stand.
David Reagan: Same thing happened in Hitler’s Germany.
Jonathan Cahn: Yes, exactly and there were very few who stood and they were the radical ones. But you know when you look back at history, or God’s history judges them as the great ones and we have to be great. We cannot be afraid this is not the time. When the dark gets darker the lights have to get brighter.
David Reagan: Well one of the things I’ve been amazed at is how God has opened special doors for you to proclaim this message for example to the Congress. Tell about that.
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah, well someone was watching me talk about “The Harbinger” and they said you know we have to do something we have to get something. And the doors opened to them to open up on Capitol Hill to have an event it happened because of “The Harbinger” that an event of proclaiming the Gospel in the Capital to members of Congress and originally it was once a year.
David Reagan: In the Capital?
Jonathan Cahn: In the Capital Building and you had members of Congress there. And you have Christian leaders and members of Congress they asked me to speak and they had various speakers. And basically total, it was kind of like the Presidential Inaugural in four minutes or ten minutes. And the thing is that has been every year, they haven’t had that they told me for over 100 years. You know they used to have services in the Capital.
David Reagan: Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Cahn: And then this is just last month, this has no become a weekly service now for members of Congress.
David Reagan: Oh, that’s wonderful.
Jonathan Cahn: So, I was there and they asked me to open it up. But yeah the Lord keeps calling me back to Washington. And I think the reason is you know in the Bible when there’s warning, prophetic warnings the Lord wants it to go to the throne, He wants it to go the leaders.
David Reagan: Well in that regard let’s end this segment by you telling this remarkable story about George Washington.
Nathan Jones: You blew my mind with that chapter 19. People need to read chapter 19.
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah.
Nathan Jones: The mystery ground you called it.
David Reagan: We’ve got about three minutes here.
Jonathan Cahn: OK, I think I can do it. The harbinger has nine harbingers and then it leads up to these mysteries. The mystery ground is this, when judgment came to Israel in 586 BC the destruction returned to the same ground where the nation was dedicated to God, which is the Temple Mount. This is where Solomon dedicated the future and all that. And this is where they prayed and put the whole nation into God’s hand. Well when that was destroyed God was saying, you’ve broken the covenant, return to where you have fallen. Now here’s the principle, the judgment returns to the ground of consecration. What about America? America began as a nation as we know it not in 1776 that was independence, but it was formed in 1789 first time you had a president, the Constitution, you have the president over the government. It was George Washington’s inauguration he places his hands on the Bible and gives a prophetic warning in that first speech which says basically paraphrased, it’s in “The Harbinger,” but paraphrased if America ever turns away from God, the blessings will be removed. And then he and the entire first government go to a place to consecrate America to God. And so if we can find out where that is that is the consecration ground on the first day dedicated to God. Well it was the nation’s capital the nation’s capital was not Washington D.C., the nation’s capital was New York City.
David Reagan: That’s right.
Nathan Jones: Here it comes, here it comes.
Jonathan Cahn: It was in lower Manhattan. Where was America’s consecration ground? They dedicated America to God, America’s consecration ground is Ground Zero.
Nathan Jones: Oh, man.
Jonathan Cahn: The judgment, the destruction returns to the same ground, the ancient mystery. And when it happens a shock wave comes down from Ground Zero, strikes Federal Hall where Washington gave the warning of what would happen if we ever turned away from God, puts a crack in there. But all around Ground Zero all the buildings are destroyed except one is spared, the little stone chapel where they dedicated America to God. And the reason why it was spared they say is because there was an object that shielded it from 9/11, the object was the harbinger was the sixth harbinger, the sycamore, the harbinger saved the church. And the message of “The Harbinger” is not to condemn America to judgment, it is to wake it up. God is saying return, return, return, I mean all our eyes, the media was focused on our consecration ground and we didn’t know it. God is saying return to America and even to His people to the Church.
Nathan Jones: And this is historically documented.
Jonathan Cahn: You can go there, and people have gone from all over the world to go there and you’ll see all the places I mentioned.
David Reagan: Well I stopped believing in coincidence many years ago. I believe only in Godincidences.
Jonathan Cahn: I agree.
David Reagan: And I tell you that was a God-incidence.
Jonathan Cahn: Total, yes, yes.
David Reagan: Oh, boy that is an amazing story.
Jonathan Cahn: Yeah, and God’s fingerprints are all there. And that what I wasn’t looking for anything about the harbinger.
David Reagan: Well you talk about God’s fingerprints, well when we had the great collapse of the economy in 2008 I picked up the newspaper and it was on the eve of Rosh Hashanah if I remember right. And here was our stock market crash and it said 777 points. I thought that is like God signed it.
Jonathan Cahn: Yes. And that was– and the timing of that. I mean this is now opening up we won’t delve into the mystery of the Shemitah, but the point is that the timing had to do with a biblical mystery of 7’s that’s in the Bible. It’s so exact, it’s so precise. God is in charge of everything and that is one of the things. Well people say, what do I do? Well I say listen be a peace this is telling you if you are in God’s will, He has everything in His hands. So just make sure you are in God’s will.
David Reagan: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy and our interview with Jonathan Cahn, a Messianic Rabbi from New Jersey who has been anointed to proclaim a message of warning to our nation. Jonathan, at the beginning of the program today I said we were going to spend a little time getting into controversies stirred up by your books and we didn’t have time to do that. So, could you come back next week and let’s talk about it.
Jonathan Cahn: I’ll come back for controversy.
David Reagan: Ok.
Nathan Jones: Excellent, alright. Well, folks, that’s our program for this week. And I hope it’s been a blessing to you and I hope you’ll be back with us next week so we can talk to Rabbi Cahn we’ll continue our interview then. Until then this is Nathan Jones speaking for myself and Dr. David Reagan saying, “Look up, be watchful, for our Redemption is drawing near.”