David Reagan - Interview with the Antichrist
Is the Antichrist alive today waiting to be anointed by Satan? Does the Bible really say that he will gain control over all the world? Will he actually be killed and then raised from the dead as the book of Revelation seems to imply? And could he possibly be a Muslim? For the answers to these and many other important questions about the Antichrist, stay tuned.
Tim Moore: Greetings in the name of Jesus, our Blessed Hope and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. My co-host, Nathan Jones and I have a special guest with us today, he is Jeff Kinley from Arkansas. Jeff spent two decades as a student pastor at several churches before he decided to step out in faith in the year 2000, and form a ministry called, Main Things Ministries. He earned his bachelor’s degree from the University of Arkansas, and then proceeded to Dallas Theological Seminary where he earned a Master of Theology degree. He and his wife have three grown sons. And so, we just want to say welcome to Christ in Prophecy, Jeff. Glad you’re here.
Jeff Kinley: Thanks, Tim. Great to be here.
Nathan Jones: So good to have you on, sir.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, good to see you again, Nathan.
Nathan Jones: You are always a lot of fun. Well, Main Thing Ministries, I’m intrigued by the name, Main Thing, what is the main thing in the Main Thing Ministries?
Jeff Kinley: Well, I had a t-shirt one time when I was a youth pastor it said, “Keep the Main Thing, the Main Thing.” So, the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. And what is the main thing? It is our relationship with Jesus Christ. So, everything that we do has to focus on the main thing. So, when I got to naming my ministries, my first book series was called, “The Main Thing Series,” it’s all about connecting us to Jesus Christ, that’s always the main thing.
Nathan Jones: So, how long were you a youth pastor?
Jeff Kinley: About 25-years. Yeah.
Nathan Jones: And then 20 years with Main Thing Ministries?
Jeff Kinley: Yes, about 20 years now.
Nathan Jones: You are a lot younger looking than you should be.
Jeff Kinley: That’s right.
Tim Moore: Yeah, he has preserved well as we like to say.
Jeff Kinley: I was born at an early age. Let’s put it that way.
Tim Moore: Well, folks, Jeff is a very gifted communicator both as a speaker and as a writer. And he’s the author of more than 30 books, this is the latest one, “An Interview with The Antichrist.” And, Jeff, this is a fascinating tale, you use a fictional way of describing an interaction with the Antichrist by a young man who is essentially the narrator. How did you come about to use that fictional format? And then of course follow-up with a conclusion that is more just you explaining some questions that might be asked about the Antichrist.
Jeff Kinley: That is a great question. I think one of the things that my ministry right now is focused in on is reaching the next generation of Christians. And one of the ways you do that, being a good missionary, you speak their language, you go where they are. And so, in writing the fiction portion one of the things I discovered, all my children are Millennials, and their spouses as well, so one of the things that we discovered was they are reading historical fiction right now. They are reading books about World War II, which is amazing. I didn’t think they were ever interested in that, but because it’s fiction they are into it. So, I thought, oh, here’s an idea, let’s take scripture, let’s put it into a fictional format to sort of bait them, to get them reading about. So, that will whet their appetite. My wife tells me that the fiction portion is sort of like breadcrumbs leading to the truth in the back of the book.
Nathan Jones: Wow, you know, Tim and I have a real heart for the youth too having teenagers, and twenty-year-olds. And so, it seems like fiction is the new way. Growing up it was heavy academic and theology books, my father sold books and Bibles for many years. He saw in the day it was heavy theology, and now it is devotional. In your research, as you put this book together, with 20 years and 45 in ministry, did you learn anything new? Was there something new to learn about the Antichrist?
Jeff Kinley: There is always something to learn, Nathan. That is the thing that I tell people that the more you dive into scripture, the more you find you don’t know, so you continue learning. When I did a study on this and began to do my research one of the things I discovered that there are over 100 passages in the Bible that talk about Antichrist. Which I wasn’t aware that there really were that many. Thirty-six times in the book of Revelation he is called the Beast. And the more you dive into his character, the more this sense of evil really comes out. Which really informed me and helped me write the fiction portion of the book, to sort of flesh out his character, and characteristics.
Tim Moore: Well, I tell you what, you captured really, a picture to me in a brilliant way just in the very first page of your preface, page 9, even at the preface where you said, “That he will have the charisma of John F. Kennedy, the mystique of Barack Obama and the arrogance of Alexander the Great.” And we could add a whole host of other politician figures today who have a sense of arrogance about them.
Jeff Kinley: Yes.
Tim Moore: But to say that he is going to be a terribly charismatic, a man with mystique, and yet a person who has tremendous arrogance. I thought those were great ways to communicate that idea.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, and he is someone who is going to be groomed by Satan. If you think about it, this is Satan’s his masterpiece. It is something Satan has wanted to do, since the Garden really, is to embody an individual and to be able to personify himself to incarnate himself into a human being, again mimicking the real Christ. And so, when Satan does that, obviously he has his characteristics come out. The Bible tells us he can disguise himself as an angel of light. So, Satan himself is cunning, he is deceptive, he is charming, but he is the root of evil itself.
Tim Moore: So, to follow-up on that if you say that he is sort of the culmination of this person that Satan has poured into, do you think that there is one individual, or do you think there have been potential Antichrist throughout history that Satan has poised, and ready to bring to the fore when the moment presents itself?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, that is a good question. I think Satan has probably had a candidate for Antichrist in every generation, because he doesn’t know God’s timetable. He doesn’t know when the Rapture is going to occur. And so, he’s probably been grooming several people. I think Hitler was a classic case of this, I think he probably embodied a lot of his characteristics, obviously trying to kill the Jews, and things that he attempted to do. So, I think there’s been a candidate in every generation. However there has never been a time where all the signs begin to converge like they are in our current generation, so that tells us that Antichrist really could be on the horizon.
Tim Moore: Very true.
Nathan Jones: Wow, that makes a lot of sense. Well, does that mean then, and we get this question a lot, if the Antichrist does come today, and I think we all agree the signs of the time say we are living in that season, does he know he is going to be the Antichrist?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, that is a great question. Scripture doesn’t exactly tell us the answer to that. However, when we get to the midpoint of the Tribulation something happens in the personality of the Antichrist. He goes from being this cunning leader, this peace provider, to this Devil filled tyrant. And so, there is a switch that is flipped at that mid-point of the Tribulation. So, if there was a time when the Antichrist would say to himself, I think I’m the Antichrist, it would definitely be that time.
Tim Moore: Well, I think that in history there are plenty of examples of people who have been perhaps motivated in a more positive manner, but then they became warped in their own arrogance, and their own conviction. Joseph Stalin at one point was a student of theology.
Jeff Kinley: That’s right. Yeah.
Tim Moore: I don’t think he was a Master of it, like you Jeff, but he actually studied theology. And then of course as he became consumed with power, he obviously went into a very different direction and murdered millions and millions of people in Russia and throughout the Soviet Union. So, sometimes I think people can be deluded even with their own pursuit of power, and ambition.
Jeff Kinley: Yes.
Nathan Jones: What is the old saying- absolute power, corrupts absolutely. And that might be the case for him?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, I think so too. And think about this too, that Satan partners with the sin nature. I mean Scripture says we are evil enough as we, “the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things. Who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9.
Tim Moore: Very true.
Jeff Kinley: But you think about with the Antichrist Satan is going to actually embody this person, he is going to enter into this person. There have only been two people in history that scripture says that that is true of, one is Judas Iscariot, and the other is the Antichrist. So, I believe that he is going to completely control him, completely possess him. Whether or not he knows he’s the Antichrist we don’t really know, but that partnership with that sin nature, I think, is enough to get him where he needs to be.
Tim Moore: Wow, that is a good point.
Nathan Jones: Well, you said something about flipping a switch. And it seems there was an event that happened that flipped the switch for the Antichrist, and that was, it appears he’s murdered and then resurrected from the dead. How did you take in your book, “Interview with the Antichrist” what position did you take, and what are the other positions about that interpretation?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah. Well, in the book, it is told from the perspective of a young Belgium journalist named Julien. And he through a series of events gets invited to be the official biographer of this newly, elected leader of the known world, this European Alliance thing, and so, going behind the scenes it is told from his perspective. So obviously in the book he believes that the Antichrist has been killed, legitimately, and is truly raised from the dead. In fact, I have the Antichrist figure here talking about what he experienced on the other side, and what he embodied during that time. And then as he comes back he’s really a new person, he is reborn, if you will. There are basically two theological positions on this. One is that the Antichrist is not really killed, but it is a huge rouge, it is deception, and therefore his resurrection to life is also a deception. Scripture does say that in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that the Antichrist will have supernatural signs and wonders that he will perform, you see that also in Revelation 13. Those same two Greek words are the same words describing the miracles of Christ as well. So, on the one hand you see at the very least these miracles are going to be as convincing as the miracles that God Himself did. So, from that sense the deluding influence is going to come upon the world, and in that sense you could say, whether it is a real resurrection or not, people are going to believe that it is a real resurrection.
Tim Moore: Maybe that is the bottom line.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah.
Tim Moore: People believe in their deluded minds, and so you really don’t answer that question completely and then I respect that. But, as far as the perception, and the belief, and today we have people that believe in all sorts of things that are clearly not true, but in their minds they are real and true. And so, that’s kind of what matters.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, that is a great point, Tim. And you think about this, in the generation that we are living in right now it takes so much to wow people. I mean we’re not impressed with anything in our generation. We hold in our hands a device that has more technology than the whole NASA Space Program, the Apollo Space Program.
Tim Moore: Right.
Jeff Kinley: So, it takes a lot. So, apparently this resurrection is, or this supposed resurrection is going to be so convincing that billions in the world are going to bow before this person to take his mark and to declare themselves to be allegiant to the Antichrist.
Nathan Jones: I like how in the book you took it that he heard a voice from the other side, and the voice got louder and louder over time. And it very much parallels demon possession. You hear people who start dabbling in the occult, and witchcraft, they start hearing a voice and soon the voice is dominating, and then it has taken over their thoughts, and eventually it takes over them.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, I have a point in the book where he says, “Now, I don’t really know which is the voice and which is me.” So, now I’ve become one, basically, with this other entity, this other force that is outside.
Tim Moore: It is so very, very dangerous.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah.
Tim Moore: Well, I think it is fascinating to think that this person can be alive today, obviously poised to step in if opportunity presents itself. We obviously believe that as the Lord brings about the Rapture then the world condition will descend into chaos. I like to say for instance in our own country there are Christians scattered in every sphere. There are Christians in the military, as your son was, there are Christians in academia and business, in government, there are even Christians in most churches. And when the Rapture occurs the world will descend into chaos. I mean 2020 will look like child’s play compared to the economic depression, and destruction, and out of this calamity one individual will step forward to say, “I can fix this. I have a solution. Just unite behind me.”
Jeff Kinley: Oh, absolutely. In fact, that is what current world leaders are calling for. They are calling for a centralized government. A great global reset. We’ve had everybody from John Kerry to former Prime Ministers of England calling for this thing. And of course, there has to be a leader, there has to be one person to bring that. If right now if one person stepped forward and brought peace, and calm to this world, who cured COVID, who did all these things, I guarantee the entire world would follow this person.
Nathan Jones: Ah, so we know it is Bill Gates then.
Jeff Kinley: Exactly.
Tim Moore: No, I doubt that.
Jeff Kinley: With his famous vaccine.
Tim Moore: Well, I tell you what folks, we are going to take a brief break and when we return we are going to continue this conversation about whether the Antichrist could be around today.? Who it could possibly be. And whether he would be a Muslim? As well as other important questions. Stay tuned.
Nathan Jones: Welcome back to our interview of Jeff Kinley, the prolific author of a new book titled, “Interview with the Antichrist: His Hour Has Come.” Hey, Jeff, let’s pick up where Tim left us. We know the origins of the Antichrist, he rises out of Europe, but he has religious background as well. And it seems like Joel Richardson, and Wally Shoebat and others have made a big case for the Antichrist being a Muslim. Do you believe that the Antichrist will be a Muslim, or what religion does he come from?
Jeff Kinley: Well, I think one of the ways that people arrive at that conclusion is the Muslim messiah, he’s called the Mahdi. And this Mahdi has similarities with our Antichrist; he rides a white horse, he reigns for seven years, he kills Jews, he has a headquarters in Jerusalem for a while, that type of thing. But really our information, our best information is from the Scripture, not from the Muslim scriptures, so to speak, not from the Qu’ran. And when we examine that we see that he rises out of the sea of humanity, as you said. But the thing, the problem that I have with a Muslim Antichrist is that he does things that I don’t see a Muslim doing. I don’t see a Muslim allowing the Jews to rebuild their temple on the third most holy Muslim site, Islamic site. I don’t see that. I also don’t see them making a peace treaty with Israel, which is something Muslims don’t typically do. But the greatest thing I don’t see a Muslim do is claiming to be greater than Allah.
Tim Moore: Of course, yeah, claiming to be God.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, claiming to be God.
Nathan Jones: He’d be killed, right?
Jeff Kinley: Yes, he would. And he clearly does claim to be God. So, for those reasons I don’t really see him as being a Muslim. So, that tells me he’s probably then a Gentile. So, that’s kind of where I went with that.
Nathan Jones: But what is this religion? He worships the gods of fortresses. Does this mean he is like a war monger?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, in Daniel 11 it talks about that basically he has no desire for women. And so, people say well, could he be a homosexual? But the very next phrase really explains that, but he honors a god of fortresses. I think this speaks to the fact that the Antichrist is pursuant of power. He wants control, that is his ultimate deal, that’s his end game, which is Satan’s end game as well. He wants power, and control over the world. And so, really I think he just doesn’t have time for a relationship, but that he is pursuing control, and for military might really from the very beginning. He is developing this huge military force which at the end is going to be at his disposal. So, I think that means that he really pursues the power, and that power has to come through enforcement through the military.
Tim Moore: I think clearly there have been individuals in the past in history who had a similar kind of motivation. They were so focused on power, that relationships, and even romantic relationships were not at the forefront.
Jeff Kinley: Right.
Tim Moore: So, Hitler had a girlfriend, but for the most part he was so fixated on power and expanding his empire that that was not on his list of priorities, and I would agree with you.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely.
Tim Moore: I would submit the Muslims today would claim that Jerusalem is key in their ideology, but it is not actually even referenced in the Qu’ran by name. So, even the idea of the Mahdi, they’ve borrowed many elements of Christian.
Nathan Jones: Oh, yeah it is 600 years later, that Mohammad.
Tim Moore: Yeah.
Jeff Kinley: Right.
Tim Moore: So, they borrowed many elements of even the Mahdi itself from Christianity in a confused manner. So, I would dismiss that claim as well. I agree with Nathan that this would be a Gentile person. And the faith, if you will, of the fathers, he just doesn’t have much time for that because he is so focused on power.
Jeff Kinley: Right. Yeah.
Tim Moore: Well, one of the other things that you address is clearly his fixation, his obsession with the Jewish people in the second half of the Tribulation. How does that come about? And I think we’ve already kind of touched on it but explain how the Antichrist turns from signing a peace treaty with the Jews to wanting to obliterate them all together.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, well, again it is all part of Satan’s great deception, satanic deception. In Revelation 12 we have the second, or really the third coup in Heaven, really it is the last coup that Satan attempts on Heaven. The Bible tells us that Michael and the archangels cast them down to the earth. And during that time, it says, “The Devil becomes enraged with a great wrath.” And this particular phrase, the way it’s poises is never mentioned any other time. So, basically what happens is Satan realizes, and then it says in the very next phrase it says, “because he realizes his time is short.” So, now he realizes that the clock is ticking. One of the dichotomies that we see about Satan and about the Antichrist is that they both have to know that can’t win this thing, but they still believe they can. I mean even at the very end when he is gathered on the battlefield of Armageddon he’s there because he believes he’s going to win. And the Bible says the whole world will see Christ come back, Revelation 1:7. I think perhaps Satan and the Antichrist could be behind broadcasting that thing, because they think, they want the world to see how they are going to defeat him.
Tim Moore: Wow.
Jeff Kinley: But to answer your question more pointedly, Tim is that he launches three attacks on the Jewish people in the rest of Revelation chapter 12, he goes after them. I call it the midpoint massacre because it happens at the midpoint of the Tribulation period. Now, why is this such a big deal? Well, you consider that Satan knows that from the Jews came the Messiah. That obviously is a huge craw to him. But also, the Jews wrote the Scripture. But in the end for the Antichrist, and through Satan he understands that if there are no Jews left to call upon the Messiah to save them, the Messiah will not return at the Second Coming, meaning I can continue to rule the world in perpetuity. And so, if he can kill the Jews he can prevent, theoretically speaking of course, Jesus Christ from returning.
Tim Moore: Well, I think there is one other rational that in his deluded mind he would pursue, and that is to harken all the way back to the beginning to prove God a liar. If there are no Jews for God to keep His promises to. For them to look upon Him, and for Him to bring salvation to the Jewish people, then God would be proven a liar. And I think Satan has always endeavored to prove God a liar, at least convince people that God is a liar. God is not a liar; He honors every promise to the Jewish people, and to us, so Satan himself is the father of lies.
Jeff Kinley: That’s right. John 8:44. And he says in Genesis, that is the first thing he did was question the integrity of the Word of God.
Tim Moore: Yes, exactly right.
Jeff Kinley: And I think that is what he has been doing ever since, and he’s doing it today.
Nathan Jones: And it seems like Satan always follows the same strategy. You can hear Satanic music today, like “The Humbling River” which talks about everybody gathering, we can overcome this is we gather. We see at the end of Tribulation, Armageddon, he gathers all the people, not just the armies of the world together. At the end of the Millennial Kingdom, he gathers all in rebellion, he thinks that if he can create a big enough army he can overthrow God. And God wins every time. And Satan seems so deluded thinking that this strategy, and he uses the same strategy again and again.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah. It’s the epitome of self-delusion. I mean Satan is the poster child for that. And I think when we get into the Antichrist he is the human element for that, for that self-delusion. And think about it, the essence of deception is that you don’t know you are being deceived. So, if you believe this, and you are being deceived, you don’t know that is really happening. That is what happened with Antichrist.
Tim Moore: It is, and Hitler, back to that example at the very end of his reign over Germany as the whole nation is falling apart around him, is trying to command different units, in places that no longer existed.
Jeff Kinley: Right.
Tim Moore: And so even his top lieutenants knew that he was completely over the edge delusional. Well, we want to touch on a few things, but one of the elements that you brought up was the Antichrist being located in Babylon. So, without getting off on that tangent too long, why would you suggest Babylon as being the place of his headquarters? I know Revelation talks about Babylon, but what are some of the other options that you found in your study?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, well there are basically two views on this, one that it is in Babylon, one that it is in Rome, those are the two big ones there. But a couple of things, Babylon has always been kind of the seat, the hotbed of rebellion against God ever since Genesis 11 with Nimrod. It is mentioned over 300 times in the scripture, almost every time, except for maybe one it is a literal city. When we get to the book of Revelation it is mentioned 44 times out of 404 verses, so 11% of the book of Revelation mentions Babylon. And then also, people talk about, well, it could be symbolic, and that is possible as well. But Babylon is strategically located, at a point with the Euphrates River, which is very strategic in the book of Revelation. It is also going to be a place where demons are released during that time as well. So, those are some reasons. And then also there are just some practical reasons there are great vast oil reserves in the area, it is a great place where countries really come together. So, that really could be, if you take it from a literal standpoint it could be Babylon. Some people think well, it might be Rome and tying in the Roman Church, and that type of thing, so there is debate on the issues. But what I did in the book, actually with the fiction part guy, I started with him being in Rome, and I ended up in Babylon.
Nathan Jones: Yes, and I thought, and you put the religious center in Jerusalem which is a lot will argue is the third option, so you kind of covered all your bases.
Jeff Kinley: Yes.
Tim Moore: So, you kind of split the baby, there I would say, Jeff. That was a good part of places.
Jeff Kinley: Make everybody happy.
Tim Moore: Yes, sir. Well, we are not going to fixate on that, but one of the things that a lot of people question today is the concern over the Mark of the Beast. Now, obviously we get questions almost every day.
Jeff Kinley: Oh, yes.
Tim Moore: You know, if I take the COVID vaccine is that the Mark of the Beast? And are we in the Tribulation? So, address those two questions kind of as a combine.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, I think it is very important for Christians to look at what the Bible actually says. There is a lot of rumor, lot of speculation, a lot of white noise, what does the Bible say? The Bible says the Mark of the Beast is going to be an actual mark on the hand, on the forehead.
Tim Moore: Yes.
Jeff Kinley: And it’s not going to happen until the midpoint of the Tribulation period. So, if we are in the Tribulation, and the vaccine is the Mark of the Beast, we are in the middle of the Tribulation, not just the Tribulation. Obviously, it’s not going to be a vaccine, it is going to be an actual mark, the Greek word “charagma” there. We are not in the Tribulation period. Why? Because the Antichrist has not signed a peace treaty with Israel. He has not been revealed. And we are not seeing the things that we begin to see in Revelation chapter 6, with the wars, and the plagues and that type of thing. Certainly, there are foreshocks, there are previews. We are hearing almost the melody of Revelation being played in the background music right now, but we are not actually in it. When we get in it, if you are in it and you know you’re in it, you’ve been left behind, because I don’t believe Christians are going to be a part of that time period.
Nathan Jones: Well, there are two ways to avoid the Tribulation, one for believers, and one for unbelievers, right? What is the way for believers?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, well, the way for believers is the Rapture of the Church. Jesus promised to come back and rescue us from the wrath that is to come. And the context of that passage is speaking of the Day of the Lord, in the end times. So, I believe Jesus is going to Rapture His Bride, come back just as He promised in John chapter 14, so that we can be with Him forever. For unbelievers, very important that they call upon the name of the Lord right now, while they are listening to these words, while there is any inclination about they might want to do that at some time, the Bible says now is the day of salvation, because the longer we harden our hearts, the more harden our heart gets, and the darker our minds become.
Tim Moore: Well, obviously we know that the fate of the Antichrist is that he is destroyed, and that all who have aligned with him are also destroyed. And one of the things that Nathan mentioned earlier was the way that people today sometimes are dabbling with demonic forces. And you had a very beautiful way to communicate that in the very end of your book. I won’t give away that poignant ending, but it concerns me that many today are allowing themselves to be drawn into Satanic influences, dabbling with demons. And if they are self-deluded as the Antichrist himself will be, they may miss this opportunity. What would you say to them?
Jeff Kinley: Well, I totally agree. And part of that self-delusion right now we are seeing in America, we are seeing across the world is Satan appeals to self, he always appeals to self, and what can make us feel more self-fulfilled, self-happy type of thing. And even in religious circles this is happening. But the more we go down that path, the more we pursue anything other than what scripture says about Jesus Christ, and about what He offers us, then the Bible says that God basically just turns the lights down. Romans chapter 1 is a great evidence of that, it says, “If we suppress the truth that we know to be true about God, God then hardens our hearts, we begin to speculate.” In other words, we are like blind people walking in the dark. That’s what happens.
Tim Moore: We are here today to turn on the light.
Jeff Kinley: Amen.
Tim Moore: So, we will be right back with a final word.
Nathan Jones: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy. Jeff, how could folks get in touch with you and pick up this excellent book?
Jeff Kinley: Go to jeffkinley.com, and you can pick up my book anywhere books are sold, Amazon, or any Christian distributor.
Tim Moore: Very good. Well, folks that is our program for today. I surely hope it has been a blessing to you, and I hope the Lord willing that you will be back with us next week. Until then this is Tim Moore, speaking for Lamb & Lion Ministries saying, “Godspeed.”