David Reagan - Revival or Revolution?
For many years, some Christians have held out hope that America would experience another wave of spiritual regeneration. But mid-way through 2020 anarchist and agitators, culture-drivers, and even some politicians are openly advocating for Socialism and the wholesale rejection of Judeo-Christian values. So, which is it? Are we poised for revival or revolution? Stay tuned.
Tim Moore: Greetings in the name of Jesus, our soon-returning King, and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. Those of you who are regular viewers can see that we have mixed it up a bit today. I’m Tim Moore, the ministry’s associate evangelist and I’ll be hosting today’s program. It is my pleasure to welcome my two colleagues, Dr. David Reagan, our director and senior evangelist, and Nathan Jones our internet evangelist. Fellas, welcome to today’s show.
David Reagan: Well, thank you a lot, Tim. And folks, as you can see, Nathan and I are in the hot seats, and that’s because Tim was the one who came up with the idea of this program, and so I said, “Okay, Tim, go with it.”
Tim Moore: Here we are.
David Reagan: Alright.
Nathan Jones: And I’m so glad we are covering revival. One of the main questions that we get into the ministry all the time is: Will there be a great end time revival before the Rapture of the Church or not? And so, I am glad that we are covering this.
Tim Moore: Well, Dave, thank you for the opportunity to host, it is quite a privilege and an honor to do so. And so, let’s get right into. We have a very heavy topic for today, revival or revolution? And let’s break it down. When we look at the condition of the world today, the Church even in the United States, do you see any evidence that we are on the brink of a revival.
Nathan Jones: Well, let me quote you a Barna poll that came out in March of 2020. In 2000, 45% of American society believed that they were practicing Christians; they went to church, they read their Bible regularly, they were involved. In 2020, this year, it is down to 25%. Now, those who call, they are unaffiliated or nones, are 21%. So, we have almost as many people who say they are irreligious, as we do people who are practicing Christians. The only upside of that is Bible reading, in 1993, and again in 2020, it is still about 35%. So, we are finding that church people are leaving the church, and doing their own home studies, and their own things. But overall Christianity is continuing to decrease in numbers here in the United States, and of course decrease in influence.
Tim Moore: But does that mean that we are poised for an explosion of evangelism? We are a mission field right here at home, is that an opportunity or a possibility you see evidence of around us today? Dr. Reagan, what do you think?
David Reagan: Well, I don’t think there is any possibility for a revival, none whatsoever. And the reason I say that is because the Bible says that in the end times right before the coming of Jesus, society is going to completely disintegrate, and it says that the church will be filled with apostasy. There is not one prophecy in the Bible about a spiritual revival in the end times. So, the crucial question is: Are we in the end times? And I think beyond a shadow of a doubt when you look at all the signs of the times and you see how they’ve all converged, that we are definitely in the end times. That we are in the time when the season of the Lord’s return. And there is not one single verse in the Bible that indicates any kind of revival. The only verses that I’ve ever seen have been primarily from the Old Testament where they quoted verses that had to do with the Millennium, they do not have to do with the end times. There are some New Testament verses that people will use, but I don’t they’re valid.
Tim Moore: Nathan, any thought?
Nathan Jones: Well, there are two conditions in the end times, there is one the secular world and you can read that in 2 Timothy 3, “But know this in the last days perilous times will come, men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud…” and it goes through a long list of sins. And then you can go to Revelation chapter 3 and look at the final phase of Church history, the Church of Laodicea. And the church is defined as apathetic, they think they’re rich financially, but spiritually they are very poor. So, you’ve got a condition as the Church continues to become more apathetic and have less impact in the world like the Barna poll showed, you then have an increase in the people believing that they are their gods. And then exhibiting all the vices that we read here in 2 Timothy 3.
David Reagan: Jesus Himself said that He was going to come back when society was like it was in the days of Noah. You go to Genesis 6 and see what society was like, it was characterized by two things: violence and immorality. All over the world today, not just in the United States, we have societies characterized by immorality, increasing immorality, and increasing violence, particularly because of terrorism in the world today. So, you know we are living in the season of the Lord’s return, and I just–one thing that I would point out is that there are some major pastors in the United States in whom I greatly respect, I mean greatly respect, who are teaching that they believe as a result of all of this stuff that is happening to us there will be a great revival. And I can understand that from their pastors’ heart. And everyone without exception goes back and they talk about all the great awakenings that occurred in American history, when we grew cold in the Lord, and then there was a great revival. But the point is that we haven’t grown cold in the Lord, we have turned our back on the Lord. We have kicked Him out of our schools. We have kicked Him out of our public arena. We have become a secular pagan society. We are not cold in the Lord; we are militantly hostile toward the Lord. And God is getting ready to pour out His wrath on it, in fact He has already started.
Tim Moore: Yes.
David Reagan: With the perfect storm that we have right now. Just think of it, it is a perfect storm in the sense that we have this tremendous medical calamity, we have an 8,000 point drop in the stock market, we have the collapse of the economy, and we have violence in the streets. It is a perfect storm.
Tim Moore: It is a perfect storm. Well, not to disagree with either of you, because obviously I agree that we are living in the season of the Lords’ return, the signs of the times are manifest all about us. But there are individuals who will point to passages like Joel chapter 2:28-32. And they’ll say, “Well, Joel promises,” in the Lord through Joel, “that it will come about after this, that I will pour out my spirit on all mankind.” Obviously, it says beyond that, “Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. And I will pour out on male and female servants My Spirit in those days.” And they say, “See that is still a promise for the outpouring of God’s Spirit.” Obviously, Peter quoted that passage in Acts and said it was for all men.
David Reagan: And if you read the verses before that, there are two important things. It says there is going to be two outpourings of the Spirit, the early rain, and later rain, which refers to the two rainy seasons of Israel. And the early rain was at Pentecost. The later rain will be in the end times. Now, notice that the verse starts out by saying, “and after this.” Well, after this, is after the reestablishment of Israel if you read the proceeding verses. The reestablishment of Israel occurred on May 14, 1948, exactly almost one year later in 1949 an evangelist in Los Angeles who was holding a tent meeting took off like a rocket, and suddenly the world found out about Billy Graham. And this great evangelism occurred all over the world. That was the beginning, I believe, of the later day pouring out of the Spirit. We have been in it since then, we are at the end of that period, not the beginning of that period.
Tim Moore: I concur completely. Nathan any thought?
Nathan Jones: Yeah, just like Dr. Reagan said, Acts 2:17, Peter quoted Joel saying that this is the time, at Pentecost, you are hearing these miraculous things happening. We are not supporting that the Holy Spirit has cessated through Church history, absolutely not, the Holy Spirit continues to do the work of salvation and provides miracle gifts. But it seems to indicate in Joel that as we get up to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the Tribulation that these miraculous gifts will increase. So, we have to differentiate then between the Rapture and the Second Coming.
Tim Moore: Yes.
Nathan Jones: Leading up to the Rapture, all these dreams and visions stuff, I don’t think so. I think those are dedicated to the outpouring, as Dr. Reagan said, during the Tribulation time period, that seven years when God will judge the earth.
Tim Moore: Okay, if we don’t see any evidence, and if God’s Word doesn’t support any thought that there will be a widespread revival, I’m talking national or on a global scale. Obviously, in individual lives there is that opportunity always, we’ll touch on that in a moment. But if there is not the likelihood of a revival, then what about revolution? Obviously when we as a nation revolted back in 1776 it was against the tyrannical reign of the King of England, that is documented in our Declaration of Independence. But if we are talking about another shoe that is to drop, is America on the brink of a revolution, and if so, what are we revolting against today?
David Reagan: No, we are not on a brink of a revolution, we are in a revolution. We are revolting against God, and against His Word. The apostasy in the Church today is absolutely, totally, appalling. Look how fast the Church, and even the evangelical church has flipped on the issue of homosexual ordination, homosexual marriage, it is like there are no verses in the Bible that condemn this, it is just unbelievable. One of the most popular apostacies being taught in the church today, even by some evangelicals, is the idea that there are many different roads to God. After all we’ve got to be tolerant, and we’ve got to understand, that the Muslims have their road, and the Jews have their road, and the Hindus have their road. And that is absolute nonsense, and it makes Jesus a liar when He said, “I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life, and I am the only way to God.”
Tim Moore: Amen.
Nathan Jones: We have to look too what the Bible prophecy says the end game is. What is the end game in the Tribulation? It is a one world government, ruled by a man of lawlessness who promises to bring peace to all the chaos. So, the world has to get more chaotic, more wars and rumors of wars, more of the signs that Jesus gave in Luke 21, that point to a destruction of organized society, and a rebuilding it in the Antichrist’s image. So, America is the biggest impediment to the world trying to destroy Israel right now. And we are seeing this kind of crossover as the Church gets weaker, and Israel gets more prominent, that eventually the church will be removed. And then, we’ll you talk about revolution, then all Hell will break lose and that is how the Antichrist establishes his kingdom.
David Reagan: I want to emphasize how far and fast we’ve come. In the year of 1999, I wrote this book and it was published in the year of 2000. And the book was titled, “Living for Christ in the End Times,” and the subtitle was, “Coping with Anarchy and Apostasy,” and the publisher refused to do that subtitle. He said, “That’s too radical.” He said, “We’re not facing anarchy and apostasy.” I said, “We are.” He said, “No, we aren’t.” You know publishers have absolute control of the cover, and what the cover says. So, He gave it this incredible subtitle, “Balancing Today with the Hope of Tomorrow.” Whatever that means? That’s gobbledygook. So, in 2015 I decided to jerk the copyright from the publisher, because I owned it, and we published this book again, a revised edition in 2015, and we put that on there, “Coping with Anarchy and Apostasy.” And I think even then people thought that was a little radical. I don’t think anybody is thinking that’s radical now.
Tim Moore: No, I don’t think so at all. You know I’ve been writing lately abut Saul, King Saul as opposed to David, the first and second king of Israel. And it is interesting to me that the Lord Himself described the reason that the Israelites were clamoring for a king, He told Samuel, “They are not rejecting you, they are rejecting Me.” And of course he anointed Saul to be the first king, but later as Saul disobeyed the Lord’s commands, the Lord said very clearly, “I am rejecting you as king because you have not obeyed my commands and you have rejected My Word.” So, whether it is talking about revival, or this revolution that we are talking about right now, America and even the Church is not so much rejected the thought of Judeo-Christian values, we’ve rejected God Himself and His very Word. And that pattern continues to this day, and we are very clearly in the throws of a revolution. Not just what we witness on the streets in 2020, but the heart of man which is turning against the Lord God even in this formerly Christian nation.
Nathan Jones: And Samuel is a type of church too because his children were spiritually unfit to lead the nation of Israel. So, when the nation lost confidence in their theocratic leadership, they wanted to go to secular leadership. And I think that we are seeing that in the United States and around the world today; people have lost faith in the Church.
David Reagan: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said that there was one reason the Soviet Union suffered 70 years of Communism, we forgot God. And He said the same thing to us in the 1970’s, “I can see that you are following the same trail, America has forgotten God.” And he said, “You are going to suffer the consequences.”
Tim Moore: What an indictment, and a warning. Well, folks if we concluded the program at this point, the sense of doom and gloom would be overwhelming. And that’s arguably why some people avoid studying Bible prophecy, they are overwhelmed by the foreboding it conveys. But there is hope in the midst of horror. We’ll take a short break, and then discuss the glorious hope that can be yours.
Part 2
David Reagan: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy. Tim Moore has been leading our discussion about whether we’re destined for revival or revolution. But, as we closed our first segment, he hinted at hope in the midst of horror. So, Tim, what in the world do you have in mind?
Tim Moore: Well, Dave, we’ve already established the very tragic state of our society today. But throughout our discussion we focused on what Bible prophecy had to say about the Day of the Lord, and what is instore for mankind in God’s master plan. So, as Paul Harvey would say, “let’s talk about the rest of the story.” So, if revival is impossible, and revolution is inevitable, or already underway, what is an individual to do? In other words, I would submit to you that instead of focusing on those very gloomy scenarios, we should focus on God’s glorious revelation about the future. Again, not revival or revolution, but revelation. What say you?
Nathan Jones: Well, let’s look at the prophet Jeremiah, if anybody was watching a country fall apart and get torn apart and taken away into exile it was the weeping prophet. And he says in Lamentations 3, and he’s going through all his troubles.
David Reagan: This is after Israel has been destroyed.
Nathan Jones: Yeah, Israel is destroyed, the nation is gone, and he’s weeping in the dust. And he says, “This I recall to my mind; therefore, I have hope. Though the Lord’s mercies are not consumed because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning; great is Your faithfulness. ‘The Lord is my portion,’ says my soul, therefore I hope in Him.”
Tim Moore: I hope in Him.
David Reagan: You know, Tim every time I get to feeling down about what is going on. I see society falling apart. I see apostasy growing in the Church. The one verse I go to that gives me great hope is found in Psalm 2. Psalm 2 begins by saying that all the leaders of the world, all the political leaders, the kings, and princes, so forth, are all conspiring against God and His anointed One. That was written 3,000 years ago by David, and it is still true today. But is says in Psalm 2, in verse 4, that as they conspire against God, God sits in the heavens and laughs. Not because He doesn’t care, but because He has it all under control. He has the wisdom. He has the power to orchestrate all the evil of mankind to the triumph of Jesus Christ. So, we have to remind ourselves God has got it under control.
Tim Moore: Amen.
David Reagan: That gives me hope.
Tim Moore: It certainly does. And I love examples in the Bible. I love to find exemplars; men and women who demonstrated great faithfulness even in the time of tragedy or calamity, or great threat to their own lives. I always think of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who in Daniel were threatened with being thrown into a fiery furnace. And their response to King Nebuchadnezzar was, “O, king, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter, if it be so our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire, and He will deliver us out of your hand. But even if He does not we will continue to serve Him.” I’m paraphrasing that last phrase. And so, we don’t have to worry about the circumstances that surround us if we’ve put our faith in Christ. So, when I refer to God’s revelation, I’m obviously talking about His entire Word revealed in the Old Testament and New, the Holy Bible itself. It is a wealth of information about His master plan, as you’ve talked about Dave, for the Day of the Lord that is approaching, for the season of the Lord’s return, the end times in which we are living. And it does provide examples of godly men and women. But we also have a book of the same title Revelation that contains Jesus Christ’s own personal testimony about the things which must soon take place. I’m quoting from Revelation 1:1. And in chapters 2 and 3 of that book, you mentioned earlier one of the churches, but He dictated letters to seven different churches with specific promises to believers who overcome. So, I’m going to ask you, we’ve touched on this before, but just to settle today what is an overcomer? And how are we to overcome the present darkness that is closing in on our culture, and our country?
David Reagan: Well, an overcomer is defined for us in the New Testament in 1 John chapter 5, it says point blank that an overcomer is one who has put his faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. And we will become an overcomer with Him, just as Jesus is an overcomer. And every promise in the book of Revelation is made to overcomers. But you know what, before we get deep into Revelation I want to go back to the previous question you had where you talked about hope.
Tim Moore: Okay, yes.
David Reagan: I think we need to talk more about hope because we have a great hope. For example, in Isaiah 43 God says, “When you pass through the waters I will be you, and through the rivers, they will not overflow you. And when you walk through the fire you will not be scorched, nor will the flame burn you. For I am the Lord your God, the holy One of Israel, your Savior.” God is going to walk through, with us, through the worse possible times. The Bible is full of passages like this, over and over, that give us tremendous hope. And of course the greatest hope that a Christian has right now in midst of all this is found in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 beginning with verse 13, where it talks about the Rapture of the Church; and how Jesus is going to appear in the heavens, and the shout of an archangel, and a blowing of a trumpet, the dead in Christ will be resurrected. And those of us who are alive will be taken up and translated on the way up from mortal to immortal. And it says at the end, “Therefore comfort one another with these words.” Those are great words of hope, and comfort.
Tim Moore: They certainly are. I think of Habakkuk who was given a revelation of God’s judgment that was about to be poured out on his nation. And Habakkuk was taken aback as we like to say.
David Reagan: He sure was.
Tim Moore: But he was despondent. He just couldn’t believe all the horrors that were about to ensue, and he prayed, “Lord, in wrath, remember mercy.” And I always think the Lord must just of been shaking His head.
David Reagan: Yeah, he must of thinking, yeah.
Tim Moore: Yeah, really? The Lord is the definition of mercy. So, even as we are about to enter a period, the world is, of unprecedented wrath, the Lord always offers mercy to those who put their trust in Him.
David Reagan: And I love the way Habakkuk ends because after God has told him, I’m bringing the Babylonians, they are going to completely destroy your nation. He thinks about that for a long time and then he says, “Well, here’s where I am Lord. I will exalt Your Name, I will rejoice in You the God of my salvation. The Lord God is my strength. He has made my feet like hinds’ feet. He makes me walk on the high places.” He says, “Even if you destroy all the food, and all the cattle, and everything else, I am going to put my trust in you, and I am going to hope in you because I know you are a God of love and goodness.”
Tim Moore: And the Lord affirms that hope, and that trust by saying, “The righteous will live by faith.”
David Reagan: Faith.
Tim Moore: Exactly right.
David Reagan: We’re not to live by our feelings.
Tim Moore: No.
David Reagan: If we live by our feelings we are going to get in trouble real fast.
Tim Moore: Oh, they are very fleeting, and false.
Nathan Jones: But there are some prerequisites, you have to be a Christian. Go back to 1 John 5 it says, “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.” So, we have to love Him. It goes on to say that we have to keep His commandments. In other words what is His great commandment? To accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, love God and love others. “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.” And so, we are talking about belief in Jesus Christ as Savior, to be His child. We are talking about loving God and obeying His commands. Go out and preach the Gospel, and to remain in faith, as you just read, the just shall live by faith. That’s the definition of an overcomer.
David Reagan: Robert Jeffress the pastor of First Baptist Church always comes down hard on this point. He says, “You know there may not be much hope for our nation, but let me tell you what, there is hope for individuals. Anyone who puts their faith in Jesus Christ.” He says, “That is one of the things about this dark period we are in right now, as it gets darker and darker,” he says, “the light of Jesus shines brighter and brighter. And more people we can bring to the Lord if we focus on preaching the Gospel and not preaching social justice and things like that.”
Tim Moore: Exactly right. But what are some practical ways? Let’s say, the folks watching today, are already believers, and they see all the doom and gloom. What are some practical ways that Christians can overcome the fear, and the apostasy of this present age?
Nathan Jones: When I was growing up, you don’t hear this hymn anymore, but I used to love this, it was one of my favorite as a kid, “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus.”
Tim Moore: Oh, I love it too.
David Reagan: Oh, I love that.
Nathan Jones: I’m not much of a singer but it goes, “Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face. And the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace.” You know when you are looking at the majesty and wonder of God, then all of this nonsense, this chaos, these trouble seem to fade away in the light and glory of God. We take our eyes off God and we get kind of focused on our daily activities, our trials, and tribulations of life, and we start panicking. It is like a child who his father is teaching him to ride a bike, you know your always secure when dad’s hand is on the back of that seat, but eventually dad lets go, and then we get scared and we fall. We take our eyes off God, and that is when we begin to fear.
Tim Moore: Kind of like Peter walking on the water. And the Scripture says, “He saw the wind.” Well, what he saw was the effects of the wind, but when He took His eyes of Jesus Christ he began to sink into the waves.
David Reagan: That’s true.
Nathan Jones: Absolutely.
David Reagan: Well, Tim that’s what my book is all about “Living for Christ in the End Times.” It is practical things that we can do to cope with anarchy and apostasy. And what I’ve done is written a chapter on each one. What I’ve said is: You Stand on the Word of God. You Believe in the Power of God. You Rely on the Holy Spirit. You Practice Tough Faith. You Order Your Priorities. You Keep an Eternal Perspective. You Stand for Righteousness. You Persist in Prayer. You Surrender in Worship. And You Cling to Hope.
Tim Moore: Amen. Dave, the things that I summarized even as I was preparing this conversation was that we should study the Word of God, the Revelation of God from beginning to end to understand its promises, to become well versed if you will.
David Reagan: And you can’t emphasize that enough because there is a famine of the Word.
Tim Moore: There is a famine of the Word. And again, from beginning to end, not just the proof texts for the things that we have preconceived, but the entire Gospel from beginning to end, the entire Word of God. We need to pray without ceasing, and all the more as we are in this time of darkness. We need to determine to not to quench or to grieve the Holy Spirit; and I think that is something Christians should take much more seriously as He would endeavor to work and shine the light of truth through us. And finally, I love what you said, Nathan, keep our eyes on Jesus. Not only to receive a blessing; those who are looking for His return are promised a crown of righteousness. But also, to motivate the very evangelism that you speak of, to ensure holy living, and to make sure that we are vibrantly expectant of His return.
David Reagan: And all I can say is amen, and amen. And add one thing to it. Do not put your hope in politicians.
Tim Moore: No.
David Reagan: Politicians will always disappoint you. The Republican Party is not going to save this nation. The Democrat Party is not going to save this nation. That doesn’t mean you don’t take a stand and you don’t go out and vote and you don’t take a stand for righteousness. But don’t put your hope in that. Don’t put your hope in the Supreme Court, we’ve put our hope there, and our justices get on there and they change, and they move from right to left, and they start making all. We’ve got to put our hope in Jesus.
Tim Moore: Well, there is a lot of talk about faith these days. And some people have faith in faith. And our hope is not merely in hope. But if we have already established today that revival is unrealistically optimistic, and revolution is realistically hopeless, in other words it is very realistic that it is happening, but it only leads to hopelessness. Christians are not people that are mere optimists or realists, we are people of hope. And not just hope in hope, but hope in a blessed hope, in the Blessed Hope, which is Jesus Christ.
Nathan Jones: Amen.
Tim Moore: Amen and amen. Well, folks, our hope is not in societal reforms, as Dr. Reagan said. It is not in dodging revolution, and national self-destruction through one more election cycle. Even though we must stay engaged as salt and light in the gathering darkness, our blessed hope is in the person and the promises of Jesus Christ. He is more trustworthy then any system of man. He has revealed His master plan for the culmination of human history. And all three of us pray that you have already placed your trust in Him.
David Reagan: Amen.
Closing
Tim Moore: Well, folks, that’s our program for today. We hope it has been a blessing to you, and that Lord willing you will be back with us next week. Until then this is Tim Moore for Lamb & Lion Ministries saying, “Look up, be watchful, for our redemption is drawing near.”