David Reagan - The Mighty Angels of Revelation with Nathan Jones
Have you ever wondered about the reality of angels? The origin of angels? The purpose of angels? And whether or not there are guardian angels? Stay tuned.
David Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus, our Blessed Hope, and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. I have two of my colleagues on the set with me today. And first is Nathan Jones who is our Internet Evangelist, and the other is Tim Moore our Associate Evangelist, and my designated successor. Now, if you are a regular viewer of this program, I’m sure that you have noticed that Nathan is not in his usual position. He is in what we call the hot seat. And the reason for that is because we’re going to throw all the questions at him. And, Nathan, I want to get started fast here, so here comes the first one.
Nathan Jones: Okay.
David Reagan: Hang on.
Nathan Jones: Alright.
David Reagan: Put on your seatbelt.
Nathan Jones: Alright, hot seat.
David Reagan: Alright here we go.
Nathan Jones: Feeling hot.
David Reagan: Let’s just begin with the obvious question. What in the world got you interested in angels?
Nathan Jones: Well, you know I took angels for granted until my parents got in a really bad car accident. I mean it was so bad that when the other car hit them head-on it pushed the engine block into the passenger seat and crushed my mother. And my father even though he was pretty badly banged up crawled out and passed out on the pavement. Well, all of a sudden he heard this Harley Davidson motorcycle roll up, and he loves motorcycles, so he knew what it was, and he saw the chrome wheel. And all of a sudden this big biker guy, all clad in leather and bandanas with Heaven’s Angels on the back of his jacket lift him up, and put him in the grass, and then tear the door off of my mother’s car to help her, and then checked on the other car. Well, I didn’t hear about this until hours later when my father was in the hospital and he said, he called and said, “Well, I was talking to the paramedic, and I wanted the paramedic to thank the biker for helping me.” And the paramedic was like, “Sir, I don’t know what you are talking about.” And they talked to the policeman, “Did you see that biker that helped out?” He said, “There was no biker here.” And to this day my father was sure that an angel came to help him.
Well, I kind of believed the story, but then I was skeptical. I’m like why am I skeptical? I’ve been a student of the Bible all my life. I went to Bible College and Seminary and all, and I should believe that there are angels at work in this day and age. Well, they are, but I was skeptical, and that’s what really actually got me into studying angels, or angelology which is the study of angels.
David Reagan: So, that is the reason that you have this motorcyclist on the cover of your book, right?
Nathan Jones: Right, yeah.
David Reagan: Coming down the highway.
Nathan Jones: I call him the Biker Angel, because my parents aren’t the only one who has been rescued by a Harley Davidson driving biker, who mysteriously disappears, and I put some stories in the book here. But as I wanted to learn more, and more, about angels. I talked to a good friend of mine, Vic Batista, and he’s a pastor down in the Miami area, and he and I do a radio show every week. And he said, “Well, you know if you really want to learn more about angels you need to go to the book of Revelation.” He said, “There are 72 distinct angels, or groups of angels that can be found in the book of Revelation.” He said, “Why don’t we teach through it for a year, and you’ll more and more.” And sure, enough the more I studied about angels in the book of Revelation I realized that, well Revelation means an unveiling, so Revelation unveils or takes off the veil that hides us from the spirit world. And we can really understand more about God’s mighty angels, His messengers, is what angel means, messenger, “malak” in the Hebrew, or “angelos” in the Greek, and understand more about angels. So, in this book not only do we learn a whole lot about angels, but we learn a whole lot about Revelation.
David Reagan: Well, did you find that Vic’s advice was true, that there is more information in the book of Revelation about angels than any other place in the Bible?
Nathan Jones: Well, there are 108 references to angels in the Old Testament, and 176 references in the New Testament, 72 of those are just in the book of Revelation alone. I mean there are angels throughout the Old Testament, it talks about Jacob wrestling with an angel. There was an angel guarding the Garden of Eden so that Adam and Eve couldn’t get back in. Angels showed up to destroy armies. We get into the New Testament they announce Jesus Christ’s birth. They were there at the tomb when He was resurrected. They were there when He ascended to Heaven. All sorts of angels throughout the Bible. But I was like we’ve got the Church today, do we really still need angels? And that’s what Vic challenged me on, do angels work for the Lord in this day in age? And as I studied more, and more, I realized, yes, He does.
Tim Moore: That makes me ask a question, and by the way, Nathan, I love the opening story that you just recounted of your father and encountering the biker angel. Matter of fact I’ll drive down the road looking for bikers in a different light from now on, because that was such a personal story. And I’ve had similar experiences with friends who recount that they’ve seen, or suspected they’ve encountered an angel in their own lives. But you mentioned all the angels throughout the Bible, why did you decide to focus just on the angels in Revelation in this particular book?
Nathan Jones: It was because for one I love the book of Revelation.
Tim Moore: Obviously.
Nathan Jones: I mean after all we are a Bible prophecy ministry; Revelation is the book that we love to study. But two it’s the amount of angels, there are 72 angels, or groups of angels found in the book of Revelation. And there are more angels in that book than throughout the rest of the Bible. So, if you really want to know how God works through His angels, then that is the great book. And He works through them in so many different ways, you’ve got guardian angels, and worship angels, there are some who are instrumental, some carry the throne of God, the cherubim.
David Reagan: Some are warrior angels.
Nathan Jones: Sure, there are warrior angels, there are protector angels, there are nurturing angels who help feed people, and nurture them and rescue them. There are those angels that when you die they escort you up to Heaven. I mean there are so many angels found in the book of Revelation, that’s really pretty much the place to go to learn about angels.
David Reagan: What have you found to be some of the most common misconceptions that people have about angels?
Nathan Jones: Well, if you grew up like me in Americana here, you have these children’s books from the 60’s and 70’s, and they had beautiful illustrations of these white guys with curly hair, and they have these beautiful feathery wings, and this metal halo somehow floats up over their head. And they’re all stoic and they look like they are wearing togas. And I just assumed that was what angels look like all the time. But when you read Revelation, you realize that angels, sure they’re spirit beings, they have physical bodies, they’re not ghosts. Also, they don’t all look the same, some like the seraphim for instance have faces of like a lion, and an ox, and an eagle. Some do look human; some can change their forms.
David Reagan: And some can take on human form.
Nathan Jones: Absolutely. For instance, when Abraham was walking with the Angel of the Lord, the Angel of the Lord is a pre-incarnate form of Jesus Christ, a name for Jesus Christ. We read in Revelation 1 and 19, Jesus unmasked in His true glorification, and it is truly astounding to read what Jesus really looks like when His earthly body, the glory comes out like at the Transfiguration.
Tim Moore: I love how you highlight even in Revelation how at times the Angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ, and yet, you point out that some people sometime misperceive that certain angels might be Jesus, and they’re not. And so, you have been very clear in giving credit to where Jesus appears in the descriptive terms that John uses as the Angel of the Lord.
Nathan Jones: It’s important to understand when we say angels we are saying messengers. So, when you read–when I say the 72 angels or groups of angels, they’re not all of the celestial class, the angelic beings. Some are messengers, John for instance was a messenger for the Lord, the Apostles. The Angel of the Lord was God’s messenger. Even though it was God Himself He was treated not as an angel but as God, Jacob and Gideon and all gave Him great reverence. And so, whoever is a messenger for the Lord, I put under the category of angels. You and I could be considered angels because we are messengers of the Lord, so to speak.
David Reagan: I want to get back to misconceptions because there are lots of misconceptions, that you haven’t even touched on. For example, a lot of people believe that Christians become angels.
Nathan Jones: That is a huge misconception. I think we get that from “A Wonderful Life,” right, when Clarence said–
David Reagan: You’re going to blame it on a movie.
Nathan Jones: –“When a bell rings, an angel gets its wings.”
Tim Moore: Hey, now that is one of my favorite movies now.
Nathan Jones: It’s a great movie.
David Reagan: I was pulling for Clarence all through that movie.
Nathan Jones: I was, and he got his wings, but that is theological incorrect. Angels are a separate class. If you go to the book of Job, it talks about how the angels were rejoicing as God created.
David Reagan: They were there at the time of Creation.
Nathan Jones: Yeah, they saw the Creation, so they are a creation separate and apart. They stay angels, we are not angels, we are a separate creation. Now, it is interesting people look at angels and oh, they have all these great powers. And when you go through the mighty angels of Revelation you see that some of them are so powerful they could destroy planets if needed thanks to God’s power. But, when you read about them you realize that in the Old Testament they were called Sons of God. They were the mighty Sons of God, but you go to the New Testament, after Jesus died on the Cross, and Christians become the Sons of God. The positions change, instead of the angels being above us, we become above the angels. Even though they are more powerful, we are the ones given breath by God, we are made in His image. And so, we are over the angels, and that should encourage any Christian who is involved in spiritual warfare, and we are constantly in spiritually warfare with the fallen angels, which are demons.
Tim Moore: Well, that brings up the question, obviously there are some who have fallen from grace, and are now opposing not only God but us. What did your research and your study of Revelation tell you about the demonic angels; those demons that work with Satan himself?
Nathan Jones: Well, Paul told us that we are fighting a war against spirits and principalities, and powers. In other words, behind human government, as you know about human government in the Kentucky State Legislature.
Tim Moore: Yes, I’ve seen it.
Nathan Jones: That there are satanic forces working behind the scenes. And Revelation goes all the way back to Genesis and it tells the story especially in Revelation 12 how Satan as a red dragon was the most, he was named Lucifer, he was the guardian over God’s throne. He was the worship leader. And after all that time he wanted the worship to start going to him and not to God. And so, the first sin that came was pride, and he led a third of the demons, or angels I should say at the time, to follow him. They tried to overthrow God, which it’s impossible to overthrow God. And God cast them out and sent them down to earth. Now, there is another misconception about angels when it comes to demons, that there are actually two groups of demons. There are the ones that have been disembodied and live on this earth to afflict mankind, and they look to possess people. But there is another group, and we read about these in the Trumpet Judgments, that are being held, they are so terrible, I mean they are world shattering super powerful demons. They have a general called Abaddon, many of them look like locusts, terribly frightening looking things. They have these shamara type steeds that they ride, and they lead a 200-million-man army. And as part of the judgments that God is going to do on the earth, He is going to release these demons that are being kept for that time onto the earth to punish mankind during the Tribulation. So, there’s actually a misconception about demons. They’re not symbolic of evil. You know they are not just a figment of our imagination. They are real, created beings that have rebelled against God, and they are destined to their fate in Hell.
Tim Moore: I thought you had a great point in your book, Nathan, when you said, “We need to be aware of them, and wary of them, not afraid of them, but we don’t need to become fixated on them, lest we be drawn into kind of a darkness ourselves.” So, there is a proper balance to understanding, and again recognizing the Lord has protected us, but not becoming fixated on demons.
Nathan Jones: Oh, absolutely. When I took angelology back in Bible college, it was my first year, our professor was actually very hesitant to talk about what’s called demonology, the study of demons. He says because for that very reason, you can start getting so fixated into it, and so interested in the demonic world that it will start dragging you into it. And many a Christian has given up on their faith to chase after the occult. And we got to remember, and this is what is great about the book of Revelation, it’s Jesus victory story; and it’s His victory over Satan, and it’s His victory over the demons. The demons are defeated, why anyone would want to side with them is beyond me.
David Reagan: My favorite verse about angels is not in the book of Revelation.
Nathan Jones: Okay.
David Reagan: It is in the book of Hebrews.
Nathan Jones: Okay.
David Reagan: Chapter 1, verse 14 says, “Are there not ministering spirits sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?” That is speaking about angels. It says they are ministering servants sent to serve those of us who are going to inherit salvation. I use that verse all the time. When I get ready to go on a trip I ask the Lord to post an angel at my house to protect it. When I get ready to fly on an airplane I say, “Lord, surround this plane with your angels, and fly with us every moment of the way.” I have been praying earnestly that God would surround Standfast Oyinna in Nigeria and his camp of Christian refugees with angels to protect them from the demonic forces there in that country. So, I use that verse all the time as a ministry of angels.
Nathan Jones: Angels clearly have a position not only as messengers but as guardians. The argument could be made that little children all have guardian angels as well. The Lord, obviously, has all the power in the world to do anything He wants, but He chooses to use that power through not only His angelic beings, but through Christians, through the Church too.
David Reagan: Amen.
Part 2
Tim Moore: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy, and our interview with Nathan Jones about his fascinating new book titled, “The Mighty Angels of Revelation.” Well, Nathan, I see you’ve brought somebody new to our set, so why don’t you go ahead and introduce here.
Nathan Jones: Ah, it is my great pleasure to finally meet in person after two years of working together, Shalis Stevens. When I set out to do a book on angels I didn’t want it to just be text. I wanted you to connect to the angels by visual, and I couldn’t do that. I can’t draw a stick figure for the life of me. So, I wrote all the local Christian colleges and I was like, “Well I would like someone new, and fresh who might fit this.” And I gave them a profile. Sure, enough Abilene Christian College recommended Shalis Stevens. And not only was she a student, she had a master’s degree as well. We put a little art contest against a few of the other different artists, and Vic and I decided she had the look we were going for. So, instead of me telling your background, why don’t you share, what’s your background?
Shalis Stevens: Ah, yes, I have a BFA in Graphic Design from Abilene Christian, and I have an MFA in Painting from the Savannah College of Art and Design. And I’ve worked as an illustrator for a while, I worked even before I went to school I worked as an artist.
Nathan Jones: And you work with paintings now, right? That is your primary interest, is painting?
Shalis Stevens: I do, yeah, I like paintings. I mean I love illustration and watercolor, and pen and ink. I’m always trying to get back to having enough studio space to get back to oil painting, that’s my favorite thing.
Nathan Jones: And your full-time job is restoring?
Shalis Stevens: Yes, I’m an art conservator. Specifically, a paintings conservator, so I repair paintings and clean paintings.
Nathan Jones: Wow, so you have to almost be like a chemistry student to do a job like that.
Tim Moore: Yeah, exactly.
Shalis Stevens: There is chemistry involved, yes.
Nathan Jones: Well, what’s your inspiration because when we wanted to create a certain look as you can see behind you there is one of your angels right there. What is your inspiration for how you do art?
Shalis Stevens: I actually really loved artists of the early 20th Century, the illustrators like maybe Kay Nielson, Maxfield Parrish, those kind of illustrators that really pull a lot from, they pull from myth and fairy tales, kind of a fanciful style, but with a lot of ornamentation and detail. I really love to get into the detail. So, that is where it comes from.
Nathan Jones: Being a sci-fi guy I love your 1950’s kind of era sci-fi illustrations that she does. You do all sort of genres. What’s your favorite genre?
Shalis Stevens: Ah, probably, maybe kind of a sci-fi fantasy combination. Yeah, I kind of like to do my own little, recently I’ve gotten into that, just doing kind of my own style.
Tim Moore: Well, Shalis, I was fascinated by the variety of angels that you and Nathan obviously had a vision for. How did he communicate to you, and how did you envision the various angels that you depicted artistically throughout the book?
Shalis Stevens: Yeah, he would e-mail me descriptions, and also plenty of like verses to read about the angel so I could get a really good feel. I’m actually a preacher’s kid so, I’ve encountered some of these before. But, to get a lot of information about kind of a description, then we would just discuss how we wanted it to look. Like how we wanted to express like the power behind this particular angel, or the sort of biblical references that we could find.
Nathan Jones: The problem is that she had Vic and I both being guys, and we always wanted her to beef up all these guys. Like the Stone Angel for instance who throws a giant stone down upon the Antichrist capital and destroys it, poor woman had to keep on making him more and more like Schwarzenegger by the time she was done.
Shalis Stevens: Yeah, you were into like, sort of the comic book like athletic characters.
Tim Moore: You had to pull it back a little bit from the comic book look, huh?
Nathan Jones: She did it. We tried to stay very much to the Bible. We didn’t want to leave what the Bible said. Obviously some creativity was had. That’s where Shalis comes in her creativity is just, I just love. Can you–we have twelve because there are twelve sections in the book, and you made twelve illustrations. Can you show me maybe two, or three, four, of your favorite of the illustrations? I love them all. So, it is probably like who’s your favorite kid, right?
Shalis Stevens: Right.
Nathan Jones: But maybe you can show us one of them.
Shalis Stevens: Um, definitely I was really fond of the Seraphim. The one that was like a combination, this one was really fun to draw just because it was such a combination of different types. And with the lion’s head, and I had plenty room for a lot of information to add on her for ornamentation.
Nathan Jones: I love what the Bible says about them in Revelation 4:6 they are talking about God’s throne room, “And before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal in the midst of the throne, and around the throne were four living creatures, full of eyes, full of eyes in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had the face of a man, and fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures each had six wings, were full of eyes all around within, and they do not rest day or night, saying, ‘Holy, holy, holy the Lord God almighty who was and is and is to come.” Now, when people think of angels, and we said that in the earlier segment, we tend to think of just standard Americana type, but these angels kind of blow that imagery out of existence doesn’t it?
Shalis Stevens: Right. Right, there is a lot to work with there. Yeah.
Nathan Jones: What’s your second favorite?
Shalis Stevens: Ah, I really enjoyed doing the Sun Angel.
Nathan Jones: Oh, the Sun Angel, yes.
Shalis Stevens: That one was because we really, like, kind of branched out on that one as far as going really creative with the style, and a little bit more like ominous maybe this one. That was interesting to get into.
Nathan Jones: Well, the story behind it is ominous, if you go to Revelation 19, “And then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice saying, ‘To all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men,’ and so, forth and so on. And what the reference is, is that this angel is calling all the birds to come and feast on all those who will die in the Valley of Armageddon. He’s the intro angel so to speak for the Battle of Armageddon. Showing that even though Satan’s forces want to destroy the Lord, the Lord had already called it that He is going to win, because He announced it, He had the cleanup crew all prepared and ready for the destruction. That’s one of the darker angels, definitely in the story line. What’s the next one?
Shalis Stevens: I also, I think you and I both like the Wind Angel.
Nathan Jones: Oh, the Wind Angel, yes, the Wind Angel, what do you like about the Wind Angel?
Shalis Stevens: I do enjoy sort of like this kind of almost the Lord of the Rings, sort of look to it.
Nathan Jones: Tim’s like, those two.
Shalis Stevens: Yeah, I really enjoyed working on the armor basically, just thinking of really creative ways to make this armor, and doing more of a like action shot, that was really fun to work on.
Tim Moore: So, for a novice Shalis, how long would it take you to actually craft, and create a given depiction of an angel? How many hours or days, and probably weeks of time thinking about it and preparing, but once you sit down and begin to draw?
Shalis Stevens: Right. Probably, I want to say, that there were maybe eight hours in each one, I would say. And we did several what are called passes, so I would do a sketch I would send it to them, they would approve the sketch, I would work on the next stage of it. Send it to them, they would say, “Oh, can you change this or shift this, or maybe make this a little bit different to represent the angel better.” So, there were a lot of steps to go through.
Tim Moore: Well, obviously when I asked that question I’m reminded that Dr. Reagan asked an artist one time “How long it took him to paint a beautiful painting?” And he gave a number of years, but basically he said, “It took a lifetime, a lifetime of preparation.”
Nathan Jones: That’s a good point.
Tim Moore: And for you all, it took years of study and preparation on your part to have that kind of gift be manifest, and then many, many hours, countless over weeks for you all to interact, to come up with the idea, and agree on the vision you were trying to put on paper.
Shalis Stevens: Very true.
Nathan Jones: Well, that is the beauty of working with Shalis, is that it was like 90% right by the time it came to Vic and I to look at.
Shalis Stevens: Ah, awesome, thank you.
Nathan Jones: And then it is like, “Well, can you just move the bowl over. Beef the guys up.” But your armor, that’s what I love about. The Wind Angel is my favorite, matter of fact that is why we put the Wind Angel on the cover. It’s got wings, most people can relate to angels with wings, but if you go to Revelation 7 it says, “After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, or on the sea, or any tree.” So, the Lord, actually we learn from this uses His angels not only as messengers, and guardians, but to control the very weather. So, when we start worrying about Global Warming, or Climate Change or stuff, we can be sure that God’s got the weather under control.
Tim Moore: You know, Shalis I asked you off camera, but I’m going to ask you again. One of the things that is so beautiful about our Creator God is He creates with such beauty and magnificence, and yet, within our own lives He allows us to sort of fill in and color what He has already made beautiful. One of the things that I really appreciate about your artwork is you’ve done it in a pen and ink style. And I asked would a person be able to use this to color in and make these angels even unique and personalized for them without offending you the artist who created them so beautifully in the first place.
Shalis Stevens: No, not at all. I’ve actually published a couple of coloring books. So, I love doing the black and white ink drawing, and you can take it from there.
Nathan Jones: So, our book doubles not only as a teaching book, but a coloring book for some.
Tim Moore: And every person can personalize it for themselves in that regard. Shalis, thank you very much, both for working with Nathan, and for coming on today to Christ in Prophecy.
Shalis Stevens: Yeah, of course. Yeah, thank you, I enjoyed it.
Part 3
Tim Moore: Welcome back once again to Christ in Prophecy and our interview with Nathan Jones about his excellent new book titled, “The Mighty Angels of Revelation.” Well, Nathan, I know in your Minor Prophets book you had a really neat idea to use some clever, imaginative stories to introduce each Minor Prophet. I’m so glad you did that again in this book with the Mighty Angels. How did you come about doing that once again?
Nathan Jones: Well, there are so many people that have different learning styles. Some people read, some listen, some watch. Well, we provided the read, I provided the illustrations, the watch, but some people need story to connect. And so, I did the story of John as he’s taken off of Patmos and he’s guided by the Revealing Angel and given a tour throughout the book of Revelation. Two or three pages, maybe four at the beginning of each section.
Tim Moore: Very clever.
David Reagan: Well, I think that is very effective in the way you do that writing. And I’m glad you included it in this book.
Nathan Jones: Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord.
David Reagan: Nathan, what is the most important truth that you want people to take away from this book?
Nathan Jones: Two words.
David Reagan: Okay.
Nathan Jones: Jesus wins! The book of Revelation isn’t about angels, it isn’t about the Tribulation, it is about Jesus Christ getting His Kingdom. Matter of fact it is so important to read the book of Revelation that Revelation 1:3 says, “Blessed is he who reads, and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it, for the time is near.” If you read the book of Revelation you are promised a blessing. And you are blessed because you know that if Jesus wins, and then His Children we win as well.
David Reagan: And no other book of the Bible promises that, although of course you will receive blessings by reading them. But the promises are right up front.
Nathan Jones: Not only that but it also has a curse at the end, if you mess with the book of Revelation, or change it, then you will get the curses as well.
David Reagan: And yet, it is one of the most ignored books in all of Christendom.
Nathan Jones: Absolutely. Absolutely.
David Reagan: Preachers don’t preach on it. In fact, you know our colleague Don Perkins who is a full-time Bible prophecy teacher grew up in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And his preacher told him every year we’re not going to talk about the book of Revelation because if you read the book of Revelation you’ll go crazy.
Nathan Jones: Crazy?
David Reagan: Yes, crazy.
Nathan Jones: I feel somewhat sane.
David Reagan: People were scared of it; they were frightened of it. And it has a lot of bad news in it.
Nathan Jones: It does.
David Reagan: But only good news for those who know Jesus Christ.
Tim Moore: I’m glad even with angels as your motif that your focus remains on Jesus Christ.
Nathan Jones: Absolutely, because the center of the Bible is always Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ’s victory.
David Reagan: Well, you can’t say more than that I tell you, amen. Well, folks, that’s our time for this program and I want to thank, Shalis Stevens for joining us, and I pray the Lord will continue to use her great artistic talents to bring honor, and glory to His name. Folks, in just a moment, Nathan, will return to tell you how to get a copy of his new book. Meanwhile in behalf of all of us here at Lamb & Lion Ministries I want to thank you for watching our program today. I hope it has been a blessing to you, and I hope the Lord willing that you will be back with us again next week. Until then, this is Dave Reagan speaking for Lamb & Lion Ministries saying, “Look up, be watchful, for our redemption is drawing near.”