David Reagan - Jeff Kinley on the Fate of America
Is there any hope for America, or have we passed the point of no return? That is a crucial question that needs to be given serious consideration, and that is what we are going to do on today’s program as we interview Jeff Kinley, the author of a new book about the fate of our nation. Stay tuned.
Dr. Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus, our Blessed Hope, and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. My guest today is Jeff Kinley from the state of Arkansas. Jeff spent two decades as a Student Pastor at several churches before he decided to step out in faith in the year 2000 and form a ministry called Main Thing Ministries. The purpose of his ministry is to equip and inspire Christians to become life-long followers of Jesus Christ. He earned his bachelor’s degree from the University of Arkansas and then proceeded to Dallas Theological Seminary where he earned a Master in Theology degree. He and his wife have three grown sons. Welcome to Christ in Prophecy, Jeff.
Jeff Kinley: Dave, pleasure to be with you.
Dr. Reagan: Always good to have somebody from the state of Arkansas.
Jeff Kinley: That’s right.
Dr. Reagan: Well, folks, Jeff is a very gifted communicator both as a speaker and a writer. He is the author of more than 30 books, the latest of which is this one, “The End of America?” And notice the question mark at the end, and that is what we are going to talk with him about today. Is it really the end of America, or not? But first, before we get to the current state of our nation I want to take a look at the past. Jeff, I thought that one of the best chapters in this book was chapter two, where you talk about, you title it, “How Firm a Foundation.” And you talk about a very controversial thing as to whether or not this nation has ever been a quote on quote “Christian nation.” The left today says that is absolute nonsense it never was, Judeo Christian values were not important in the forming of our nation. What is the truth about all this?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, well to spite what revisionist historians may want us to believe today, as you go back and examine our original historical documents, our founding documents of our country you’ll find that God is really in America’s DNA, that Judeo Christian–
Dr. Reagan: I like that statement.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, really a Judeo Christian ethic and a Judeo Christian worldview is really encoded in America’s founding. We see it even in the Declaration of Independence where God is mentioned some five different times there. And it tells us something about their worldview. Now these men weren’t ministers. They weren’t pastors. And yet they were influenced by a Christian worldview. You go back and look at the writings of say Washington, and John Jay the first Supreme Court Justice some of those you see that God was everywhere in those writings. And even today David, you go back to Washington D.C., what do you see? You see either depicted or sandblasted into our national monuments scripture, or scenes depicting scripture.
Dr. Reagan: Everywhere.
Jeff Kinley: Oh, yeah. The Library of Congress, Lincoln Memorial, Jefferson’s Memorial, Supreme Court, National Archives, its everywhere. So, I like to say that God is encoded in our DNA, and so we were founded as a nation with a Christian background, a Christian worldview.
Dr. Reagan: Well, yeah, I tell you when I–one of my undergraduate majors was American History, and you would have to read very selectively not to understand that Judeo Christian principles were the foundation of this nation. Of course that is what revisionist historians are doing is they are editing the documents so that you don’t ever hear any references to God or whatever. But these men talked about God all the time. They talked about a nation that had to have spiritual principles in order to exist. In fact the form of government they established depends upon the assumption that there is going to be a Judeo Christian foundation. One of the things–I used to teach Political Philosophy and one of the things that I pointed out to students always was that one of the fundamental concepts of our founding fathers was that man is basically evil, and therefore we had to set up all kinds of roadblocks to the evil of man. That was the idea behind the separation of powers was to set up these roadblocks so that the natural nature of man could not enforce itself upon our nation.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely. And the Founders also recognized God as the basic giver of all the rights, and the freedoms, and the liberties that we have.
Dr. Reagan: It didn’t come from government, they came from God.
Jeff Kinley: Exactly.
Dr. Reagan: And its governments responsibility to protect those.
Jeff Kinley: That is exactly right.
Dr. Reagan: Well, let’s continue with a look at chapter three of your book. In that chapter which is titled, “Lessons from an Ancient People.” You talk about some parallels between ancient Judah and America. Tell us about that.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, well, I think we all recognize that God established a covenant relationship with the Jewish people, with Israel with Judah during its founding. And we all see that. In fact I unpack the Abrahamic Covenant quite extensively throughout that chapter. But then the point comes where we have to ask the question what is God’s relationship with other nations? I mean does He have any sort of particular established relationship or agreement with Gentiles nations? And does in fact God expect anything of Gentile nations? I believe He does. As we trace throughout biblical history we find that God judges nations based upon their moral conscious, and their national character. And we see that during Noah’s generation, and the civilization that existed during that time where there was a sense of pandemic godlessness, and unrestrained immorality, and violence was all the way across the land. And the thought of every man’s heart was continually evil. And God of course judged them for that. We see it with the city civilizations of Sodom and Gomorrah. We see it with God sparing Nineveh for their repentance. And of course Jesus in Matthew 25:32 talks about He will judge the nations one day. So, I believe that even Gentile nations have a responsibility before God to a sense of basic morality which God of course has encoded within the human.
Dr. Reagan: Yeah, God does judge nations. And as you said there are many principles that He uses. One in particular that comes to mind is how they treat Israel.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah.
Dr. Reagan: And another is how much He’s blessed them. To those who much is given, much is expected. We’ve been blessed as no other nation except Judah itself and much is expected of us as a result of that. But you look back on Judah and you see that God poured out His blessings on that nation like no other nation. I mean His very Shekinah Glory dwelt there in the Temple. And yet, when Jeremiah and other prophets began to say you’ve got to repent or God is going to destroy, people couldn’t believe that, they usually responded by saying, “The Temple, the Temple, the Temple,” which meant God’s not going to touch us. He’s not going to let anybody destroy our Temple. And I find that attitude in America today when I talk to people about America has got to repent or its going to be destroyed I often find them responding by saying, “Well, you don’t understand I mean God loves this nation.” And it’s like God sits on the throne draped in an American flag, and they cannot believe that God would ever allow this nation to be destroyed.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, we have a sense of American exceptionalism today where we think we are somehow exempt from those kinds of things. But if you think about it in the Old Testament God judged His own people. He judged Judah. He judged Israel. So, if judgment comes to God’s own people what will happen to other Gentile nations that don’t have a specific covenant relationship with Him? So, we do have a great responsibility.
Dr. Reagan: I think the fundamental problem there is that people don’t realize how serious sin is to God.
Jeff Kinley: That’s right.
Dr. Reagan: It’s just, well, He’ll wink at it. He’ll kind of overlook it. But, our nation is in outright rebellion against God and I want to talk about that in detail because that’s really what your book is all about. We’ve looked at the past, now let’s bring it up to the present and talk about the condition of our nation today.
Dr. Reagan: Welcome back to my interview of Jeff Kinley, the prolific author of a new book titled, “The End of America,” with a question mark at the end of that. Jeff, you begin the book with a very powerful statement that reads as follows: “America is in trouble. Big trouble. As a nation, we are dancing on a perilous precipice, teetering on the verge of destruction. America is losing her soul. And it’s only a matter of time before the bottom drops out and we find ourselves in a free fall from which there may be no recovery.” And then a few pages later, you add these words, you say, “I believe there is evidence to suggest that our current condition shows symptom of a nation on the brink of chaos and collapse. America is not merely slipping on a downward path. We’re land sliding toward destruction. And fast. We’re in a free fall without a parachute.” Now, those are pretty dire words. Explain them to us.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah. I think it is much like tectonic plates under the surface creating this huge earthquake and fissures in our country, but it is happening more on a spiritual and moral platform. We’re declining spiritually, David. What is happening in our country right now spiritually is alarming. Some 25% of unchurched adults today are now identifying as Agnostic or either Atheist. 49% of Americans now go to church as compared to some 70%, 30 years ago. So we are becoming less and less of a religiously affiliated country. And what that means is that we are thinking less about God. A generation is coming up now that’s not biblical literate, they don’t know the Bible; they don’t know the stories of the Bible. So, we are becoming much like Europe has become; we are becoming godless. And so now God has become the person we want to kick out of our schools, we want to kick Him out of our government. He’s not even allowed to be the Creator anymore in our society. And so for that reason and many, many others I list in the book that we are declining spiritually as a country less, and less people are thinking about God.
Dr. Reagan: And Jeff, not only is that happening but it’s happening very rapidly.
Jeff Kinley: It is.
Dr. Reagan: I mean 20 years ago if somebody had told me that we would soon see churches ordaining homosexuals and performing same-sex marriages I would have told them they were crazy.
Jeff Kinley: Right.
Dr. Reagan: And yet here it is.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah.
Dr. Reagan: It is happening so quickly. And I saw some statistics recently that certainly underlined what you just said. And that is the latest polls of the Barna Association show–and this was based on interviews with like 10,000 Americans, not just a small group. It said only 9% of Americans have a biblical worldview. And only 17% of those who claim to be Christian have a biblical worldview. And that is based on six questions. And one of those questions was: Did Jesus ever sin? And it is amazing how many evangelicals said, “Yes.”
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely. Yeah, a recent survey also by Barna said that most people believe that Joan of Arc was Noah’s wife. So, you have a lot of that kind of thing going on. And you are exactly right with our declining spirituality is a decaying morality as well. And we see that through simply the moral relativism that is pervasive in our culture today where personal opinion and emotion now trumps absolute truth, and that’s nationwide. And so anybody with a computer now gets on-line and voices an opinion that becomes on par with what God has said for thousands of years. So we see that with that, we see it also with homosexuality, with homosexual marriage. With the rise of transgenderism, the legalization of homosexual marriage, David. You know what’s interesting too, and I talked about this years ago was that when you open this door to allowing homosexuals to be married, then you open a door for others to want to get in on this deal as well. So, now the National Association for Man/Boy Love Relationships have they now want homosexual relationships between men and boys to be decriminalized, so that they can have that same right.
Dr. Reagan: Well if the courts going to rule that a man can marry a man, or a woman can marry a woman, then how can the court say that a person can’t marry ten women? Or a woman marry five husbands? I mean there is no way they can say that now. Polygamy can–I don’t see anybody enforce it anymore because I think they realized that it won’t stand up.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, the latest thing is what’s called throuples, or a team of three coming together for a marriage. And it does, it just unleashes the dam of sin.
Dr. Reagan: In England they even got people marrying their dogs.
Jeff Kinley: Right, exactly. Well if you can think that you are the opposite sex, something that you are biologically not, then certainly you can imagine yourself to be something else. And that’s actually happening as well. But we see that in homosexuality. We see it with the family, now 41% of children in America are born outside a husband-wife relationship. More and more couples are living together. But I think, David, we see it also just with the heinous sin of abortion as well.
Dr. Reagan: I wanted to mention that because one of your most powerful chapters in your book is called “The National Holocaust– America’s Holocaust” tell us about that.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah. Well, since 1973-2011 we murdered 53 million babies in their mother’s wombs. That’s just in America. Fifty-six million are murdered worldwide every year. In 2015 the hashtag #shoutyourabortion went viral. We are now holding rallies in America to celebrate the slaughter of our own children. I have to ask myself what kind of civilization not only practices this, but funds it, and celebrates it, and is proud of it? And I don’t think God can hold back judgment on a civilization that does something like that.
Dr. Reagan: Well, He certainly speaks out strongly against it in His Word. In fact one of the things that He judged Judah for was the fact that they were actually offering their babies to their false gods, burning them on alters.
Jeff Kinley: Right. Yeah, they were offering to the god Molech and they would have drummers surrounding the throne of Molech so that the cries of the babies could not be heard. Today I think we’re seeing the same thing. We sanitized it. We put a lab coat on the high priest of this pagan sacrifice, but we’ve given a license to kill to doctors. And woman now are treated as goddesses under the right to have control over their own body.
Dr. Reagan: Yeah, some commentator I was listening to recently made the point that we keep on hearing people talking about pro-choice, I’m pro-choice, but they never finish the sentence. In fact it was Robert Jeffress he said, “They never finish the sentence. Pro-choice what? Prochoice to murder my baby.”
Jeff Kinley: Right. Yeah. They believe in rights for women, just not rights for unborn women.
Dr. Reagan: Well, I think when it’s all over and done with the Supreme Court decision on abortion is probably going to be looked upon as horrendous as the Supreme Court decision on slavery in the Dred Scott case when they declared that slaves were not human beings.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah. Well, it is a barbaric practice of which America needs to be ashamed.
Dr. Reagan: Well, absolutely. And to think that we’re going to be killing that many babies each day, and God is going to do nothing about it? Come on. We’ve got a lot of problems in this nation, the celebration of sexual perversion. The abortion. The treatment of Israel, oh, the terrible mistreatment of Israel. All of these things are just–it is like we are begging for God to pour out His wrath upon us.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely. I remember what Ruth Graham said one time, she said, “If God doesn’t–” what did she say? “If God doesn’t apologize–“
Dr. Reagan: “If He doesn’t judge San Francisco–“
Jeff Kinley: “–He’s going to have to issue an apology to Sodom and Gomorrah.” Exactly
Dr. Reagan: That’s true. But God is patient. It is amazing, and He’s long suffering.
Jeff Kinley: Yes.
Dr. Reagan: But, sooner or later He’s going to deal with this.
Jeff Kinley: That’s right.
Dr. Reagan: Welcome back to our interview with Jeff Kinley the prolific author of a new book titled, “The End of America?” with a question mark after that. Well, we have considered the very blessed past history of our nation. We’ve taken a look at how we have jettisoned the Judeo Christian values that made us great, resulting in a nation that now exists in virulent rebellions against God. Now, we’re going to take a look at that question mark in the title of Jeff’s book. What is the likely fate of our nation? But before we do so I want to read something from the Bible. And this is taken from the book of Nahum beginning with verse 1, and it reads as follows, “A jealous and avenging God is the Lord; the Lord is avenging and wrathful. The Lord takes vengeance on His adversaries. And He reserves wrath for His enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.” Jeff, I have found a lot people don’t believe in the wrath of God. I’ve found that they say that’s Old Testament God, not the New Testament God. In fact one time I was asked to be on radio show in Oklahoma City, the producer told me it was the highest rated radio show in all of Oklahoma. He said–and I should have picked up on this, he said, “Now, the host is a very strong Christian but nobody knows it.” I thought, hmmm, this is very interesting. And so he said, “It’s a secular program but he still he likes your writings and he wants to interview you.” I said, “OK.” So he starts off and he says, “Well, tell us about your ministry.” And I said, “I’d rather talk about the Bible.” He said, “Well, what’s your theme?” I said, “My theme is that Jesus is coming soon, flee from the wrath that is to come.” He said, “What do you mean by wrath?” I said, “Well, God is going to pour out His wrath upon this nation, upon this world in what’s called the Great Tribulation.” And he said, “Wrath? The God I believe in doesn’t exercise wrath. That’s the Old Testament God.” He said, “Your God is just horrible.” And he hung up on me, and that was the end of it.
Jeff Kinley: Wow.
Dr. Reagan: And I found a lot of Christian just can’t handle the idea that God actually pours out wrath. Has He retired, the God of wrath?
Jeff Kinley: No, not at all. In fact we should talk about God’s wrath for several reasons, one it is part of His character.
Dr. Reagan: You talk about it in your book.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely. It is just as much as grace, as love, as His mercy. Wrath is also a part of God.
Dr. Reagan: Tell us more about that.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, and also the Bible speaks of God’s wrath. There are many manifestations of God’s wrath as you see throughout scripture. Obviously there is eternal wrath, there is catastrophic wrath like He did on Sodom and Gomorrah. There is apocalyptic wrath we see in the book of Revelation. And there’s also what I call abandonment wrath, that we read about in Romans 11–excuse me Romans 1. One of the greatest questions I think every American Christian should ask his or herself is: What does God say about America in Bible prophecy? You know we think we’re a pretty special nation. We’re the world’s greatest super power, and we’ve done many great things. But, is America mentioned in Bible prophecy? That’s a very, very big question. So as I surveyed the Scripture, I survey some of the top views there. My personal view.
Dr. Reagan: Well, answer that question for us.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, well, I think personally some of the people see America in Revelation 18, as being Babylon. Some see us as the young lions of Tarshish. Some see as the wings of the great eagle. I don’t specifically see America mentioned, but I don’t see many other nations mentioned in end times as well. So, we have to ask ourselves the question: If America is not on prophecies radar in the end times what happens to her? Now, David, I want to be quick to say that I believe America already has had an impact on the end times in these two ways. Number one we were a part of helping Israel become a nation.
Dr. Reagan: Amen.
Jeff Kinley: And we have supported Israel since then. In fact 11 minutes after Israel ratified becoming a nation President Truman issued a statement, proclamation issuing that saying that he supported that. But the second way that we have had an impact on the end times is that America really has pioneered the world expansion of the Gospel.
Dr. Reagan: Amen.
Jeff Kinley: Through not only sending missionaries and preachers, all over the world, but also through media, and television programs like this one.
Dr. Reagan: Jesus film.
Jeff Kinley: Exactly, to billions of people in fact across the world. So, we’ve already had an impact. But I think there are two ways to answer the question: Why do we not see America in the end times of Bible prophecy? I think there are human explanations, and a divine explanation. The human explanation could be that we could collapse financially sometime before that. Some 49% of American households are now dependent on some form of government assistance, so there is an economic implosion that could be looming. But also the risk of nuclear attack from either Russia or Iran, potentially or North Korea. I mean we are taking North Korea very seriously right now. Our bombers are on 24 hour alert in case something were to happen. But also there is the threat of a terrorist attack, or a series of coordinated terrorist attacks. I mean right now there are over 900 FBI investigations investigating jihadists related activity on our American soil in every 50 of our states. And so there are human reasons, but also I think there are divine reasons. And I always go back to Romans 1 because I think Paul really outlines for us what happens when a nation dies. What happens when a civilization dies? And as you know, David, it begins with suppressing the truth of God, the revealed truth of God that is revealed in heaven, in the heavens and through our own conscience.
Dr. Reagan: On that point I can remember not personally, but reading about back in the 20’s when the Scopes Trial took place and the evolutionists argument was all we want is equal time to present our viewpoint about the creation. Today it’s all the time, we suppress the truth and ungodliness by refusing even to allow an alternative viewpoint to be put forward. So that we are no longer involved in education on that point, we are involved in propaganda on that point.
Jeff Kinley: Right, absolutely.
Dr. Reagan: Well, continue what happens then?
Jeff Kinley: Well, they have to suppress it because it’s naturally known within them. God said, “I put it within you and it is revealed in the heavens.” So what happens from that there are consequences to suppressing the truth about God. And God tells us on in these verses that there becomes a darkness that comes over the human spirit. And in our foolish hearts it says are darkened. Now, when a person is blind or in darkness they have to feel their way around, they don’t have confidence so they have to speculate on: what truth is, what reality is, what humanity is, what sexuality is, what the Creator is like. And so we begin to speculate on those things in our darkened mind and yet, at the same time we declare ourselves to be wise. And God says, “No, you’re fools.” In fact that Greek word is the Greek “móros” which we get our word moron from.
Dr. Reagan: I didn’t know that.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, it’s basically God says, “Hey you’re a moron if you reject the truth about God that is revealed.”
Dr. Reagan: Right.
Jeff Kinley: But that leads to much more serious consequences in substituting the Creator with creation, and beginning to worship things other than the true God.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Jeff Kinley: Then I think that’s at that point is when God releases the parking break and it tells us in verse 24 that God gave them over to degrading passions.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Jeff Kinley: And that’s where we begin to explore everything that is within the human heart.
Dr. Reagan: So, what happens is that the nation moves into rebellion and refuses to repent there comes a point where God steps back, lowers the hedge of protection and allows evil to multiply.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely. And that phrase God gave them over is mentioned three times in this passage it is the Greek word “paradidomi” which means to be handed over or to be arrested by something. So basically God says I’m going to allow you to be handcuffed, and to be enslaved to your own passions. And it begins with a sexual revolution.
Dr. Reagan: Which occurred in this country in the 60’s.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely, it began there. Then it progresses verse 26 to a homosexual revolution.
Dr. Reagan: Homosexual plague in fact.
Jeff Kinley: Exactly. And God says they’ll do things that are unnatural; things that don’t come natural to the human spirit. That only come when your foolish heart is darkened and you suppress the truth.
Dr. Reagan: Which has occurred in this nation since the 1980’s.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely. And we’ve seen it really, as you said, an acceleration in previous in the years leading up to right now.
Dr. Reagan: Well there is a third step. What is that?
Jeff Kinley: Well, the third step is where God just basically lets go, completely, and there is an all-out sinful revolution.
Dr. Reagan: I think it’s interesting and it says that third step, “If they continue to rebel God will deliver them to a depraved mind.” And that is exactly where we are today.
Jeff Kinley: Exactly.
Dr. Reagan: We are a nation with a depraved mind. I mean the city of New York has recently declared that there is what? 52 different genders and you have to recognize those if you are a city official. If you don’t you will be fined. Schools saying that you’ve got to no longer use him and her but you’ve got to use special pronouns, and if you don’t you get fired.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, exactly. In fact that word depraved means to fail the test. And it was used in metallurgy to test metals to see if they were pure. But what comes from that is that when we are given over to a depraved mind, David, it says that they are filled with all unrighteousness: murder, strife, deceit, malice, slanderers, haters of God, intolerant, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil. We’re inventing new ways to do evil. But really the final verse just really puts the lid on it. It says, “Although they know the ordinance of God that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.” I remember when the Supreme Court decision was handed down for same-sex marriage when the White House was lit up like a gay flag, and President Obama–
Dr. Reagan: Can you imagine how God felt about that?
Jeff Kinley: Well to see the leader of the free world dancing in the Oval Office over this decision was just deplorable.
Dr. Reagan: Yes, and the White House lit up in the colors that they have stolen from God Himself. Because these are the colors of the rainbow attesting to His faithfulness. And they have taken it and pervert them into the symbol of the sexual perversion movement.
Jeff Kinley: Exactly
Dr. Reagan: Jeff, I want to thank you for being our special guest on our program today. And we didn’t get to one of the topics I wanted to talk about was is there any hope? But you talk about that in your book.
Jeff Kinley: Yes.
Dr. Reagan: So, I want to encourage people to get a copy of your book and get the answer to that question. Tell them how they can do that.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely go to jeffkinley.com, you can get all the information you need about my books, about my ministry. You can order books on that site, or even drop me a note I’d be happy to respond to you.
Dr. Reagan: Great. Well, folks, that’s our program for this week. I hope it’s been a blessing to you, and I hope the Lord willing that you’ll be back with us next week. Until then this is Dave Reagan speaking for Lamb & Lion Ministries saying, “Look up, be watchful, for our redemption is drawing near.”