Craig Groeschel - Living With Doubts
Alli Wiseman: Well, Pastor Craig, welcome back to the, "You've Heard It Said" podcast.
Craig Groeschel: Hey, great to be back with you again, Alli.
— Yeah, we're excited.
— Thank you.
— So I'm gonna jump straight in.
— Alright.
— So you've been following Jesus for a long time.
Craig Groeschel: Mm-hmm.
— In fact, you've been our pastor at Life Church almost 30 years now.
— That's crazy, right?
— I know.
— So what are you saying?
— I'm not, I'm not saying anything.
— Are you saying I'm old? I'm old enough to be your dad.
— No, I'm just saying, you've got lots of great wisdom to share.
— Okay. That's what I thought.
— Very wise.
— Okay.
— So there's been a lot of seasons where you've had really hard seasons.
— Yes.
— And lots of doubts along the way.
— Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
— And so how have you kept coming back to Jesus, when it might feel easier sometimes to walk away?
— Mm-hmm. I like the way you ask it. You know, "How have you kept coming back to Jesus when it might be easier to walk away"? Actually, even in my best doubts, my biggest doubts, I've never thought is easier to walk away.
Alli Wiseman: Really?
Craig Groeschel: Yeah. No. I mean, I just don't think it's, I don't think it's ever easier. One of the blessings for me is that my sal, you know, everybody's got different salvation stories, and every story matters. Every story's important. Mine was really dramatic. I always go back to that moment in my mind, and say that that's the most real thing that I know, that I was dead spiritually, and then I became alive spiritually.
— Hmm.
Craig Groeschel: So, with any doubt, I find that it's just, it's better to go to God with it.
Alli Wiseman: Hmm.
Craig Groeschel: And not to walk away. So I don't let, I don't, it was, it was really sad to me, and I understand it somewhat, but it's really sad when someone gets hurt by the church, right,
— Yeah.
— a lot of times they run away. And I kind of wanna just say lovingly like, I'm, you know, I get hurt by the church all the time. And then what I try to tell myself is, it actually is not the church. It was a person or two people. And, it's, you know, I got hurt recently. And they're like, "Are you mad at the group"? Like, "No, actually I'm not mad. I'm not even, I'm not mad at anybody". I was disappointed, but it was a couple people. It's not a whole organization. It's a couple people. And, and I've hurt people, right? I say things, I'd forget things, what do we do? We don't run away from God. We don't run away from the church. I say, you gotta go to it.
Alli Wiseman: Mm.
— And, and I just always find that, you know, Jesus can handle my doubts. And it's better to doubt with people doubt in community than to pull away. So I just don't, for anyone that's been hurt.
— Yeah.
— The natural thing is to pull away. I would just say push on as much as often as you can. There's, we don't heal better in isolation.
— Mm. Yeah.
— We don't heal better disconnected from God. So even if we don't understand God, even if we're mad at God, even if we're mad at God's people, if we feel like we're mad at the church, I would say don't step away. And if you have to even like, catch a breather and then come back into it, pray. So I just don't think it's better to step away from God.
— Hmm. That's good. So now that you've written this whole book, and you're in this series, you'll probably never doubt again. Right? Like you'll just, you're all good? Yeah. Like I said, I wrote this book a while back, and I told you in the last episode that God is real, God is present, God is good, and we are flawed, and we are sinful. Hmm. And there's a lot. And our minds play tricks on us. There's a lot of reasons for fallible people to doubt God.
— Yeah.
— And it could be a circumstance we don't understand, it could be a bad hormonal season, it could be a, you know, it could be a mental health challenge, it could be someone hurt us. So there's just no shame in the doubt. And, you know, unfortunately, I might have doubts again, but that's just, that's a part of it. You just, yeah. You just, you know, in a great relationship, the best marriage, the best parent-child relationship, you get your feelings hurt, you might doubt, "Are you telling me the truth"?
Alli Wiseman: Yeah.
— And they are. But you're just having a bad day. So don't, don't let that freak you out. It is doubting God, questioning God, it is a part of following God and knowing God.
— Hmm. That's good. I think that's one of my favorite parts of your book actually, is the title.
— Mm-hmm.
— Because when I hear doubt, it kind of is like this alarm...
— Right.
— That's going off of like, "Oh, you better hide that one, and pretend it doesn't exist". But the benefit of doubt almost gives it this redemptive quality.
— Yes.
— So what is the benefit of doubt?
— Well, the benefit of the doubt is, is like one of the quotes we say, "A faith that's been tested is a faith that can be trusted".
Alli Wiseman: Hmm. Yeah.
Craig Groeschel: If you have, if you have never worked through any kind of doubts before, that's a good sign that you genuinely love God, but it's probably a sign that you haven't had a lot of life yet.
Alli Wiseman: Mm. Wow. Yeah.
Craig Groeschel: And so if you, sometimes you have to have some unanswered prayers for your faith to be deeper.
— Mm.
— Sometimes you have to be hurt by Christians for your faith in God to be deeper.
— Mm.
— Sometimes you have to go through something that does not seem fair, and nothing seems fair about it for you to genuinely trust the character of God, when he didn't do what you want him to do. So you have to go through those questioning seasons. And, you know, every time I'm in a hard season, like I was in one recently that was, it was one of those on my face before God, you know, where like, "I need God, I need God, I need God". And I was hurting and I felt all this stuff. And, and I told, I just, I, for of the first times, I actually led with, "Okay, thank you God, for this season".
Alli Wiseman: Wow.
Craig Groeschel: "Because in this season, I will experience you in a different way. I'm gonna need you". And so, like, "Thank you God for it". And we're supposed to rejoice in our trials, right?
Alli Wiseman: Yeah.
Craig Groeschel: We preach that. It's really hard to do. I did it, and I did it because I've been in enough of him with God to know he'll meet me there.
— Mm.
— He'll meet me in the fire.
— Yeah.
— And so I, you are, you are alluding to the fact that I'm more mature because I've been around longer. So, and a little bit of that is true. You can know God in a different way after 35 years of walking with him than you can after three and a half months, right?
— Yeah.
— And so after decades of that, of knowing him in good seasons, knowing him in hard seasons, knowing him, when my faith is full, when my faith is a little more empty, I do recognize you can actually rejoice in the doubts because you get to know God in a deeper, more intimate way through them. You'll never see someone that's really, really close with God, that hadn't had trials, hadn't had questions, hadn't had doubts.
— Yeah. So what do you think is different about the way that you doubt now, being so far in your walk with Jesus?
— Permission to doubt.
— Yeah.
— Yeah, permission to doubt. Like, like it's so like permission to question God. And that's why I tell the church, you know, two or three times a year in message, like, it's okay to ask him, it's okay to question.
— Yeah.
— It's okay to yell at him. You look at the Psalms like, you know, David's not, he's not having any of it. Like, "God, where are you, why is this going on"? And so it's, it's just, it's given, early on in my life, I went to, before I was a follower of Jesus, I actually went to a pastor at a church and said like, "What do I need to do to be a Christian"? And the answer I don't think was good theology, but he basically said, "Don't do this, don't do that". And "Do these things". I was like going, "Well, I'm gonna screw that up bad".
— And so I didn't, I didn't feel like I had permission to even talk about the doubts, 'cause I couldn't get the performance right. And to realize that you're not always gonna get the performance right. And you're gonna doubt, and he still loves you.
— Mm.
— And he's still God, he can handle your doubts. That's a God I want. That's a God I need.
— Mm.
— And so it just, you have permission to doubt.
— Mm.
Craig Groeschel: And when you do, don't let your doubts drive you from God, let your doubts per, you know, pull you to him. And he may answer most of your questions. May not answer all of 'em.
Alli Wiseman: Yeah.
Craig Groeschel: But, but he is good, and he'll be faithful to you with what you need in the moment.
— Mm. That's really good. So for people who are in that season right now, they're in that, you know, something's going on in their life, they're not having a prayer that's answered, and they intellectually know the right things to do. They know, "I can still pray". They know, "I should talk to others". "I should still go to church, but I don't feel it in my heart".
— Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What would you tell them?
— Well, I'd say I've been there. Right? And then I would say, for example, in marriage, do you always like every, do you always feel the tingly winglies like you did, you know, the first time you made out in the slow dance or whatever? The answer for most people's, "Not always". Well, so what do you do? Does that mean you ever stop doing the right thing? No. You just continue to pray for your spouse, to treat your spouse with respect, to pursue your spouse, to pray together. So you keep doing the right things, whether you feel it or not.
Alli Wiseman: Mm-hmm.
— And I always say like, that's just so true with God. Like, if I don't feel his presence, but by faith, I know he is there, I'm gonna open up the word, and I'm gonna talk to him.
— Mm.
Craig Groeschel: And sometimes it's like he's sitting right next to me, or dwelling within me. And other times it's kind of like the, like the ceilings, like I can't get through to him.
Alli Wiseman: Yeah.
Craig Groeschel: But it doesn't mean he is not there. And so to have faith in God means you actually have to have faith, right?
— Yeah.
— That means you have to believe in someone you don't see, and that you don't always feel. That's faith.
— Yeah.
— And so sometimes you, sometimes you just have faith.
— Yeah.
— Don't be ashamed of it. Just be honest with them.
— Hmm. That's good. And then for the people who, maybe they're not personally walking through it, but they are walking with someone who's experiencing doubt, and it's not just like a one time conversation, but maybe it's been a year, or it's been a long time. What encouragement would you give to that person to keep the conversation open and to help that person?
Craig Groeschel: Well, I think that's, I think what you're saying is exactly right. You wanna keep the conversation going.
Alli Wiseman: Mm-hmm.
Craig Groeschel: And so I would just, what I love about our life groups is like, you genuinely are the pastors. You're caring for people. And so when I'm pastoring someone, I am intimately involved daily at first, like daily. Every single day I'm gonna check in and touch base. And so if someone's going through a crisis of faith, then you're gonna want, it might be a couple times a day, it might be more where we're gonna ask questions, we're gonna check on 'em, we're gonna text, we're gonna reach out, we're gonna listen. And then as there's healing, then you might go to every other day, and you start to start to pull back. But I would just say like, be intimately involved in their lives. And what you're gonna find is, people often don't know how to ask for help.
— Mm-hmm.
— And so we're gonna just bring help, whether they ask for it or not. And sometimes they don't like to receive it, because it's hard to receive it. Doesn't matter. We're gonna show up, we're gonna help them get better at receiving. And so I would just, if, and you know, especially like if you're a parent, I see this a lot. 16-year-old, 17-year-old, 21-year-old starts to have doubts in the, and so they're gonna deconstruct or whatever, and the parent runs in, and starts throwing bible verses at 'em, or starts preaching at 'em or whatever, that could work. It's not a horrible plan, but a better plan might be to sit in it with 'em, ask questions, see what they're going through. And then, I mean, I literally pray for all points, pray on the right friends, pray over the wrong friends. It's doing life with them with no judgment.
Alli Wiseman: Hmm.
Craig Groeschel: And doing a lot of prayer support. And then I try not to offer a whole lot of advice unless asked.
Alli Wiseman: Hmm.
Craig Groeschel: Sometimes you, sometimes you will want to, but a lot of times you wanna just kinda sit in it. I'll sometimes just say like, if there were, if there were something that would be helpful, "Do you wanna talk about it"? And sometimes they'll say "No". And if they say "No," I'm gonna wait. Because if I respect him in the no, then eventually they'll say yes. So, And, it's just, what I wanna do is I can't solve, I can't solve every problem in the moment.
Alli Wiseman: Yeah.
Craig Groeschel: But God can solve every problem in his timing. So I wanna be a part of what he's doing.
— Mm-hmm.
— I'm not the only solution.
— Yeah.
— I'm not the only person he's using. So I wanna try to do my part. And that could be being a listening ear. It could be praying, it could be helping them come to church. It could be, it could be listening to someone just yell like crazy, and not judging 'em in the moment, just hurting with them.
— Man, it sounds like we're trying to be as gracious with others as God is with us.
— That's, you said it very succinctly.
— Oh no, I mean you said it. Oh my goodness. But, so as we think about that, what is some aspects of the character of God that you have learned now going through all that, that maybe you wouldn't have without?
— So interesting. I'm glad you asked that because there's an, there's a characteristic of God that is so real to me right now. And I've walked with him for a long time, and I haven't talked about this much, and it's so real, get me emotional. So what do we know about God? You know, he is righteous, and he is just, and he's gracious, and he's compassionate. And he's all of those things at the same time. He's good, he's pure, he's holy. And in more recent years, having endured more pain in different avenues of life, kind of what I call like the accumulation of decades of pain, not just short seasons of pain, is I have grown to love, and enjoy, and appreciate, and honor and thank God for his kindness.
— Mm.
— He's a very kind God. He's a very gentle God.
— Mm.
— And so I've known his love as like forgiveness.
— Hmm. Yeah.
— And I've known his love as, you know, comfort. I'm experiencing his love now as kindness. He's a very kind God.
— Hmm.
Craig Groeschel: And, with that being said, someone else may need a different, one of the different characteristics of God, one of his qualities, one of his attributes. And no matter how long you've walked with him, there's more depth, there's, I mean, infinite. Who are we that we could ever fathom who he is?
Alli Wiseman: Yeah.
Craig Groeschel: And so I would say wherever you're doubting, wherever you're hurting, wherever you're questioning, that could be a doorway to get to know God in a way that you haven't before.
— Mm.
— And in my recent struggles, that's been a doorway to get to know the kindness of God.
— Wow. I love that, because for me, it's easy to believe the goodness of God. But believing he's kind is a whole other level. What do you think is the distinction between goodness and kindness, or that kindness you're experiencing?
— I feel like God, like in goodness, he is good, he's pure, he's holy, he's true. I can be pure and not be kind.
— Mm-hmm.
— Or I could be, I could be holy, and not take the time to stop and express love. I can be...
— Mm-hmm.
Craig Groeschel: And so, I feel like, I feel like all the attributes of God, his compassion, his love, his grace, his mercy is expressed in kindness.
Alli Wiseman: Hmm.
Craig Groeschel: It's gentle, it's soothing, he's gracious. With Amy, She said to someone else, she said, "Craig's always kind to me". And when she said that, I thought, "That's a really meaningful compliment to me, because I always wanna be kind". I wanna be gentle. And, I feel like that's the way God is. He is, he is strong enough, and righteous enough to smush us and we deserve it. But he's not just loving, he's not just gracious, not just compassionate. He's kind. And his kindness leads to repentance, and his and his, and he's, if you come to him with doubts, he's gonna be kind to you and gracious. And so he's just, and a long answer, the more obstacles and struggles that we face, the more opportunities we have to get to know the qualities of God that we wouldn't know otherwise.
— Mm. That's really good. So this is our last week of the series.
— Yes.
— But not the last week we hope, life groups will talk about this.
— Yeah, of course.
— So what do you hope our life groups will do from here coming out of here?
Craig Groeschel: Well, I hope we're gonna, we're just gonna create an ongoing posture of being a safe place for people to be real. Every single one of us come to Jesus broken, right?
Alli Wiseman: Yeah.
Craig Groeschel: None of us are on their way there. And we are all still in the process of being healed. Meaning we, I don't, I haven't met anybody yet that's completely been made holy and righteous by, positionally we are in Christ.
Alli Wiseman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Craig Groeschel: We're righteous before God. Practically, we still have stuff, right? And so we wanna be a place where you can bring your stuff in, and we can all look at Jesus together, and we can all be transformed. And the beauty of it is, that we all heal when someone else is healing and their brokenness. And we can all we, everybody has something. Everybody has something. That person or group that never opens up, they got a something.
— Mm.
— And we wanna be a group where everybody can bring their something and put it out there. And together we can let God heal the somethings. And, and it's is so much better to do life together. So I don't worry about the people in our life group. I know we go through bumps and bruises, and someone gossips, someone gets their feelings hurt, someone doesn't show up, someone eats all the food, and never brings the food, right? There's always one of those.
— Yeah.
— I don't worry about them because they are in community that's grounded in Jesus. I worry about the people that are not.
— Mm.
— I worry about them. And there's a lot of those in our church family that aren't rooted in deep community. And so for those that are, enjoy it, embrace it, enjoy the good times and the bad times. It's part of it. It's always part of it. And it's, even in the bad times, we're conformed to be in the image of Christ. So more power to our life groups. Don't be afraid to grow, don't be afraid to multiply, don't be afraid to let new people in. They're gonna mess it up some. That's part of it. That's when we get better, is when we get a little messed up. And so I just, I'm just grateful for them, grateful for you, and all of our life groups and missions pastors. Creating an environment where people committed to community can grow closer to Jesus is happening all the time. And I praise God for it.
— Well thank you. Well thank you again for taking the time...
— No, thank you.
— to set up our conversation, and being our pastor.
— You did a great job.
— Being my pastor.
— Yeah. Love, love it.