Craig Groeschel - The Art of Vulnerable Communication (with Albert Tate)
— Hey, it’s great to have you back for another episode of, «Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast» where we are very passionate about helping you become a leader that people love to follow. If you’re new with us, we drop a new episode on the first Thursday of each month and an occasional bonus episode where we do interviews with world class leaders from all over the world. And today we do have a world class leader with us. I can’t wait to tell you about him. But first of all, I wanna tell you, if you’re not receiving the Leader Guide, this is a must for your leadership development. Go to life.church/leadershippodcast and we will send you the Leader Guide with the release of each episode and that will help you with questions and additional content to cover with your team. I promise you, you want this content. Also, if you’re new to our community, it means the world to me when you invite others to be apart, so go ahead and post on social media if you haven’t rated or reviewed the content yet where you consume it, it would be a great gift to me for you to do so. And we’re gonna work hard to bring content that helps you grow in your leadership. Let me tell you about our guest today. I’ve gotta read because there’s so much to talk about, Albert Tate. My guest today is the lead pastor of Fellowship Church in Los Angeles County. He is on multiple boards, Azusa Pacific University, the Global Leadership Network, a Global Church Planting Organization, Stadia. He is the founder of The Greatest Story Incorporated, the president of Harambee Ministries, a regular faculty member at the Global Leadership Summit. And you’ll be joining us again at the Global Summit this year.
— Yeah.
— Teaches pastors all over the world of art of preaching as the author of some great books, «How We Love Matters». And the newest book I’m gonna hold up for you to see is, «Disobedient God: Trusting a God Who Goes Off-Script». I’m honored to have my good friend, Albert Tate.
— Yes.
— Welcome to the podcast.
— Yo, I can’t believe I’m sitting here. Somebody call my mama and tell her I made it. I made it.
— What I can promise you in our leadership community is this one’s gonna be fun.
— Absolutely.
— So, buckle your seat belts if you’re driving your car.
— Yes.
— This one’s gonna be fun. We’ve been friends for a long time. And I’ve admired your leadership both from afar and up close, but I’ve never really heard your leadership journey.
— Yeah.
— I’m curious, Albert, when was the first time that you recognize I actually might be a leader?
— Hmm. It was January 23rd, 1994. It was actually the day when I made one of the greatest decisions in my life, and that was to become a follower of Jesus Christ. We were like, we were holding a church where we were kinda like Baptist, where you like walked down the aisle at the end of the sermon and go up front. So if you’re not familiar with church, just imagine this. It’s really dramatic in my mind too, 'cause I’m thinking I’m gonna go up here and just give my life to Jesus real quick. But I’m not trying to have like some emotional thing. I just, I want to get saved, say a prayer, go to Dairy Queen, get a Blizzard and call it a night. So I walk up to the front and as I’m getting, this African American church in Pearl, Mississippi, as the closer I get to the front, the more people see me and they should start clapping. And it was like a movie where the applause got louder, like a soundtrack. And I felt it in emotion was coming up to my chest and I almost felt like crying, but I pushed it down. I was like, «Saved and a Blizzard. That’s it. That’s all we’re doing». So I try to push it down, but I get, and I passed that last row and I just fall into the preacher’s arms in tears, crying. But here’s the moment. I look around and other young people were following me up
— Wow.
— to the altar. And you looked around and there were tons of students there. And out of that we started bible studies with other students. So much so that the assistant principal at the school reached out to the local pastor and said, what are y’all doing over there? Something’s happening with our young people. And that’s when I thought, «Wow, maybe I’m a leader because I’m looking around and people are following me. Let me make sure I know where I’m going». But yeah, that was the first moment when I was like, «I may be a leader».
— So, how old were you then?
— I was 17.
— 17. And so, I want to just press into a little bit more. What were the qualities that would’ve attracted others to want to follow you?
— You know what, in that moment, that’s a good question as I think about you in my life now is vulnerability and brokenness. And I had gifts of personality or talk or funny and hang out, so you got all those things. But I feel like that intangible thing that was going on with my soul at the time is, man, I was so broken, but I was so vulnerable and honest about my brokenness. And I think people found hope in that. Yeah.
— So if you were coaching a leader now that did have, like, we all have vulnerabilities. We all have weaknesses.
— Yeah, yeah.
— Would you encourage them to talk openly about brokenness or is that… How do you navigate how much do you share, when to share?
— I’ll tell you, inevitably in every movie, you start rooting for the guy that’s vulnerable and broken. In every situation, gifts are just, they can kind of get overrated. Like, everyone’s strong, everyone’s killing it, everyone’s amazing, everyone’s brilliant, everyone’s a genius. You killed that deal. Great. What about me and how do I see myself? So then it’s a comparison, but when they see, yeah, you’re gifted, but you’re also very kind and you also very open about your failures. And you really know how to make the room about other people other than you, and you really know how to share those. That inspires people, that moves people. And it compels people to wanna follow you and get close to you because they can actually see themselves in you. They see your humanity. So, to show humanity every now and then is really a good thing. I love a leader where I know you are actually human and not a superhero. So like, Craig, I’ve looked up to you and your leadership, and you’ve got the Ironman body. So, you got the superhero body. And then I come here and I see all these facilities and it’s like, «Whoa, this is crazy». This is, so you feel like I’m in something that’s a well oiled machine. But then we sit down and my church that I’m leading is in this 11 year and I’m having a terrible year. So you said, welcome a world class leader. I was like, «I hope my staff don’t hear that». 'Cause they’ll be like, «No, not this year he not». And I sit down with you and you say to me, «Oh, I remember our 11, 12, and 13 years were terrible». And I immediately was like, «I like this guy. He’s not Ironman». I mean, you still look good, you look decent, but it’s like, «Oh, if Craig can have a terrible year and say it out loud. I think I’m gonna be all right on the other side of this year».
— And if you don’t get to year 11 and not have one or two bad ones, you’re playing a different sport than I am.
— Yeah. So that humanity that you just, it is just inspiring to people. I think it really is.
— Yeah. Well you, you do that well.
— Yeah.
— And I’m curious, so you serve on a lot of boards. One of them is the board of the Global Leadership Network.
— Yeah.
— Probably the, arguably the largest leadership conference in the world.
— Absolutely. Yeah.
— And you speak, you’re a regular speaker there, you’re speaking there this year, which I’m super excited about.
— Yeah.
— But your leadership style is not what most would consider traditional I’d say. Can you put words around, how would you describe your personal style of leadership?
— I think what my leadership is at its best, I’m in the room with people, I’m seeing people, I’m celebrating people, I’m loving people. And I’m speaking into the greatness that’s inside of them and calling it out whether they believe it or not. If we get some time together and if I’m at my best by the time we get done, my hope is that you’re at your best. So, it’s the ability to really inspire and encourage people and remind them of their greatness. And once people would tap into that and tap into your belief in them, it’s not much they won’t do for that vision and for that feeling. 'Cause you know the classic saying, people don’t remember what you do, they remember how you made them feel.
— Yeah.
— And there’s nothing like a leader that makes you feel like a leader.
— So, I’ve seen you actually doing that with some of our team and encouraging them. Could you put a little bit of kind of color behind what you’re saying? So you’re telling me what you do, but how do you do it? Like let’s say you’re interacting with Blake today.
— Yeah.
— He’s on my team and he’s doing a lot behind. I mean, he was getting ready for you three days before you’re here.
— Yeah. Yeah.
— And you don’t treat him like he’s invisible, but you’re speaking life into him. Could you tell me a little bit about, like, what do you say? What goes through your mind when you’re pulling out the best in people?
— I think in my mind, most people have no idea what you do. The investment in which you give to it, the sacrifice in which you bring to it. And if you do your job really well, you probably won’t even get noticed at all. So when I see you I know that, and I wanna make sure that you don’t feel invisible after you’ve experienced me. Because I know that most of us do thankless jobs, unseen jobs most. So my kids, I drive them crazy. I will talk to the drive-through clerk at McDonald’s, like she’s my homegirl from the ninth grade. And my kids were like, «Dad, you have no idea who this woman is. Will you get my nuggets and let’s get home». But I’m thinking about her, she’s seen a hundred people. Some of 'em had attitudes, some of 'em didn’t even look at her. Some of 'em got the order wrong and had to pass it back. Somebody went off. Some people were cordial, some people were on their phone the whole time. We just gave her 30 minutes of humanity of I’m actually a real person standing behind here. And someone actually engaged me like that. That gets somebody through a whole day.
— It does. Yeah. And I like that about you. It’s interesting is, you know, people, if they’re watching or listening right now, there’s a team of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven at least, I can’t quite see 'cause the lights, that are in here. And what’s interesting, the better the leader on the other side of this interview, the more engaged they typically are with the people that no one else ever sees. And I’ve seen this over and over again, that when someone really is world class. There’s not an unimportant person in the room.
— Yeah, yeah.
— And you do that really well.
— Yeah. Yeah. And I know what it’s like to feel unimportant. I know what it’s like to be someone that feels unimportant or feels unseen. And it’s when you really boil it down, it’s one of the greatest gifts we can give to people.
— Yes.
— The ability to be seen. And it’s not like a, «Okay, let me turn on the show and go in». And no, it’s a genuine curiosity. It’s a genuine interest. Like Ryan, his dad was, so Ryan, staff here, I don’t know what they do. You got so many job titles. So many people work here. I don’t know, my God, I know how you keep up with it. But his dad was a geophysicist. I’m talking to Ryan, he’s talking about his dad discovered oil somewhere in Wyoming and such and such this. I’m like, «This is the most fascinating guy». I don’t even wanna talk to Craig for the podcast. Bring Ryan’s dad in here. Let’s talk to him. Like, it’s fascinating. So I think also as a leader, you just learn a lot. So I learned today, I got a sermon idea from from Ryan just in the car today. Because when you’re curious about people, it just opens up a whole new world of access of information and insight. Yeah.
— So, we’ve been friends for a long time and you can actually tell you’re a leader in progress, meaning you’re getting better.
— Yeah. Yeah.
— And your ideas are sharper. You’ve got more theories in a good way. And you just talked about that you learned something from Ryan and you said, you know, having a great year. So I’m curious, like what do you do to grow? If you’re intentionally trying to get better, what are some tools or exercises or how do you think to actually sharpen your leadership?
— So when I know I’m spending time with you, Craig. I woke up at 5:00 AM this morning and I was like, «I know I’m having lunch with Craig. I know we’re gonna get a little time. I’m asking him these three, four, five». I got a list of questions that I came ready to ask you because as a leader, when I’m around leaders, I wanna learn. And I guess the lesson is, when you get a audience with a leader, come with questions. If you don’t have questions in your pocket, I don’t have time to be cordial. I hadn’t asked you about your family at all. I know your family’s good. You probably the only one talk to me about your family if they bad, that’s not what you wanna do. That’s not our relationship. I get a chance to sit with a leader. You get to pour into me, you get to speak life into me. And, bro, I’m asking questions. So one of the big ways I learn is I ask questions and I’m curious around great leaders when I get around them. And if not, then I read their content, I read their books. Oh, I know what familiar. So I’m not asking you about, Hey, tell me about how to change the thoughts of my mind. You’re like, «Bro, you can just read my book to get that». Don’t, don’t. So knowing how to show up curious, knowing how to show up prepared and gleaning information. Another big thing that I started doing in the last two years is therapy. I realized there are just some things about myself that I just need to know to be a better leader. And one of the worst things to be is to everybody on the staff to know something about you that you don’t know about yourself. So being my best self, I’m 45. So learning my shadow side, learning my blind spots, asking questions like, what does it mean to be on the other side of my leadership? What does it mean? What are you experiencing? And am I responsible for your experience with me? And I think I am more than I realize. So when I come in a room, the experience that other people have with me, I need to know that, I need to understand what I bring or what I don’t bring, or how I make people feel. Huge difference between my intent and my impact. And what I realize is that, man, I’m having impact in places that wasn’t a part of my intent in at all. And then when I get confronted with it, I’m defending my intent instead of apologizing for my impact. So as a leader, I just had to realize the difference between my intent and my impact. And I need to start owning and taking responsibility and understanding what is my impact in a room and is it something that I would be satisfied or happier or content about. Yeah.
— Oh, so I was about to move on. I had another question, but I have to stay here 'cause this is really, this is really important.
— Okay, okay.
— And I’m super glad you you brought it up. It’s my opinion in looking back at my own more immature leadership and in working with some other leaders, that a lot of times they really are not concerned with their impact. Meaning it’s almost kinda like we’re gonna get results and I don’t really care how it makes you feel. And I think it’s a massive mistake.
— Oh, it’s huge.
— That you can get short-term results, but it’s gonna come at a long-term cost.
— I mean, if we are really honest and candid, I just started hearing stories about legendary leaders that I know, but then sitting with people that actually experienced them on a regular basis and they are horror stories. And I had to say, do I want that to be my story? Do I want to say, man, he did these great works, but people that work close with me at dinner saying, «You just have no idea what it was like working for that guy. He’s a jerk. He wasn’t kind». So a word that I’ve been practicing and working on with my marriage, but even with my leadership. So it started with my marriage for sure. So, me and my wife doing therapy. And I’ll give you this story. My wife is saying something really hard, like it’s really hard and you can tell like tears kind of, it’s hard for her to say this. And the therapist did that thing where they, she says, «Albert, so how did that make you feel? What do you think»? And I’m a fixer, so my wife said that hard thing. I was like, «Yep, but you know what, we gonna get through it. We gonna do this, we’re gonna do that». And my therapist said something you never want to hear a therapist say. She said, she did it with shaking her head. She said, «Oh, Albert». When your therapist do that, get ready, you in trouble. And what she said was, «I’m trying to help you sit in her suffering. I’m trying to help you see empathy, I’m trying to invite you to sit down». And honestly, Craig, I’m thinking, «I don’t wanna sit down there. Don’t nobody wanna sit in no suffering. I want her to get up. Girl, gimme a hand. Come on, lemme pull you out here. Let’s both get outta here». And I realized that was also happening in my leadership. I was becoming a leader that as long as it got done, I don’t care what you think, I don’t care how you feel, it’s about the mission. It’s about let’s get it done, get suck it up, get it attitude. You don’t wanna work, da da da da. And it no empathy at all. People are not inspired by people like that. People will work and be productive, but I wanna inspire people that work with me and I want their nearness towards me to me to be something that inspires them to be a better leader themselves. Leadership that has no empathy, I think has proven to be dangerous and hard and contributed to a lot of people walking away from in what I do from the church because they feel like, «Oh wow, if godly people act like that, then I don’t wanna be around godly people».
— Right, right.
— Yeah.
— So what’s interesting, and I wanna stay here a little longer, man. I think this is massively important.
— Yeah, yeah.
— What I’ve found too is, so sometimes let’s say we as a leader, we don’t display empathy.
— Yeah.
— We don’t actually feel. And we’re so results oriented and we’re in such a rush sometimes that we’re not as kind.
— Yeah.
— Not listening, not showing value. And so we can, if we’re growing, become aware of that.
— Yeah.
— And change it.
— Yes.
— Because it’s really, really important. But then what’ll happen is sometimes downline an organization will have like a mid-level leader that is really good up meaning they’re respectful, they’re honoring, they’re kind, and then they’re brutal down.
— Yeah.
— And so, not only do we need to own it.
— Yeah, yeah.
— But sometimes we have to watch for it in another place in the organization. And a lot of what I’ve learned is that my view of people is only one angle.
— Yes.
— And every angle matters.
— Yes.
— And if it matters for them, it matters for us.
— Yeah. Because they’re impacting us in rooms that you don’t even see, that you don’t even, so paying attention. And that’s another thing, you pay attention to how they treat people that are down from them when you are around them, did they just pass by 15 people and didn’t speak to any of them? We just sat down for dinner, did you not even make eye contact with our server and acknowledge them or say anything?
— Yep.
— Like paying attention to those little things kind of shows you how they’re operating.
— The little things matter.
— How they’re operating down.
— Your culture is a result of a thousand of those little things.
— Yeah. And the thing that freaked me out is I’m really think, I’m really a kind person, but empathy just doesn’t come natural to me. It’s a muscle that has to be developed. And it has nothing to do with, it’s not a character issue because I do, I felt empathy. I just didn’t know what it meant to, so I had to get help to say, no, this is what empathy means. It means sitting down in the pain and suffering, and not being in a rush to get out. Coming in, not fixing. And I’m thinking, «Well, my job is to fix stuff». Or I sit down like, «How long we gotta sit here and empathy? Is it five minutes, is it 10 minute, a week? What»? So learning the practice, seeing other people sitting in their pain, understanding where they are and leading from that place, man, has way more impact, has way more of the impact that you want to have in people’s lives. And people carry that a lifetime. They’ll never forget how you made them feel when you walked in the room and you heard about something painful in their life and you just sat with them. They’ll just never forget that. They’ll never forget it. Yeah.
— Yeah. And the people on my team, they talk about the people when they leave and I love it when they brag on 'em.
— Yeah, yeah.
— Just, and it’s sad when they don’t
— Yeah, yeah. And they never brag about the project we completed.
— No,
— It’s always about…
— it’s not gonna be the quality of this interview, it’s gonna be is did you notice them?
— Yeah, yeah. Did you notice them? Yeah, yeah.
— And the interview’s good.
— Yeah, yeah.
— So, hey, I’m interested, you serve on three different boards of very significant global impacting organizations. From that seat where you sit, what would you say you’re noticing that, what kind of different problems are you solving today than you were maybe three years ago?
— Yeah. Well, everything’s different. All the problems are different. Everyone’s operating with less and trying to figure out what more means, everyone’s having to redefine success up into the right doesn’t necessarily mean the victory that it once did. The numbers mean things differently. I work in a Christian university, work on a board of Christian university, and getting Christian colleges are just shrinking or closing. And there are a lot of dynamics. One of the dynamics is there’re not as many young people now as they were 10 years ago. Something happened a few years ago and they just didn’t have any more as many babies. So literally the amount of high school students now is just the smaller numbers, so just by that alone, the pool of students is just smaller. So as leaders, I guess what I would say is not only is the game changing, some of the rules are changing. And if you’re not taking your organization through, asking some of those deeper questions and questioning even some of the assumptions that we had a few years ago, you might be missing a significant shift in the landscape that’s happening in our culture and in our world. Yeah.
— I think that’s why is we have to be reading what’s current and a lot of times it’s easy to make leadership decisions based on what we’ve known from the past, rather than accurately gauging what’s happening in the present.
— One of the phrase is we’re just starting to question assumptions. There’s so many things we assume about what we do, why we do it, how we do it, and we start questioning these assumptions, and it’s just opening up a whole lot of things. We accept a lot of premises that we should not accept. We should reject some premises.
— Would there be one or two assumptions that come to mind that would be the most obvious that you’re saying? I thought this was true before, but we actually have to think a different way now.
— Yeah. So as a pastor in church, how people go to church is just different.
— It is.
— And how they see their relationship with the church is just different. I grew up in the South, so it was like every Sunday just come. And then before COVID, you had people to come every other Sunday. Or like our numbers in California, people come like once every six weeks, which I thought that’s ridiculous. That’s one of those stats that somebody didn’t come up with, that’s not real. I asked my church one Sunday, I was like, «How many of y’all were here last week»? I’ll never do that again.
— Yeah.
— It was the most discouraging thing that has ever had. Here I am building a series week to week thinking, «Next week, come back for part two». He’s like, «No, pastor, this is actually part one for me. And this will actually be my only part. I’ll see you again in five weeks». So that changes now how I think about what we’re developing and what we’re building and our engagement and where are they when they’re not here. And how do I provide a space for them to engage us when they’re not here? Or is this the only option? So, things like that.
— So I wanna ask you about a couple of areas of your expertise. One of them, we talked, we have a ton of business leaders in our community, and you are kind of an expert in church planting. You work with a lot of church planters. In the ministry world, that’s kind of the equivalent of being an entrepreneur, right?
— Yep, yep.
— How would you say, if you’re speaking to a crossover audience, church planters and entrepreneurs, what’s different about starting something today than it was in the past?
— I just think everything’s harder. And being a solo entrepreneur, do it by myself is way more overrated than before. I would encourage more collaboration. I would encourage working together more than I probably would have or even needed two years ago. Man, if you can find somebody else with a like passion and like vision and you can work out terms to collaborate and work together, ah, everything’s just better together now.
— Does that mean you’re gonna preach for me more often?
— I will come and preach for you more often if I can get you to come at least one time for me. But like, doing things together, it’s just easier. It is better, the quality is there. The work is harder. It takes you longer to get there, but when you show up, you’re more sustainable. I think diversity means way more than it did before. It probably meant the same. But, man, the more diversity you can have around you, the stronger you are. The world is just getting smaller. We’re more integrated than before. So just building around your tribe where people that think like you, live like you, vote like you. There’s so much more out there. So I would grab for the more, I would grab the for the greater, I would reach for the harder, knowing that long term it’ll have way more impact.
— I wanna ask you about your communication style, your thought process. There’d be a lot of people who would have never heard you in kind of what I’d call like a stage presentation giving a keynote or a sermon.
— Yeah.
— And the gift that you have to kind of offer what I’d call the transfer of content in a way that feels experiential is extraordinarily rare. So, I wanna try to get into your mind a little bit. Before you do anything. And literally, it could be you’re gonna make a presentation at a meeting or it could be that you’re gonna do an exegetical teaching on the book of Exodus. What’ll goes through your mind?
— First thing I ask, I start with the end in mind, what do I want them to walk away with and what do I want their experience to be? What I want, if someone bumped into 'em in the hallway after the meeting and said, «Hey, what was that about»? What’s the line that I want them to be able to say? And I start there and I begin to work backwards from there. So, everything builds to the crescendo of what I want them to walk away with.
— And tell me, like what do you want them to walk with? With knowledge, emotion.
— It all depends on the assignment. Well, at the end of the day, if you want knowledge to stick, if you can tap into their emotion, you got a much better chance of making it stick. So let’s say I want someone to, let’s say the office is a mess and people, nobody’s cleaning up after themselves. And the goal I want for the meeting is, Hey, let’s pay more attention and let’s clean up more. That’s what I wanna start with. I may start with, a lady came in the office today and she was distraught because her husband just asked her for a divorce and we immediately brought her in the room and we brought her in a room and I had to take five minutes before we could even sit down and talk because the room was a mess and I had to clean it up, so she’s sitting there with tears in her eyes and I’m cleaning up trash. We need to create a space for people to come in and feel seen and feel loved, and not allow our trash to get in the way of them experiencing something greater, which is the hope that they long for. Now that’s emotional, that’s dramatic, but hey, when you walk outta there, you gonna pick up your trash, So, kind of start with the end in mind. And then the other big thing is, the first two minutes you got in any communication, people are deciding whether they’re gonna listen to you or not. Like the first few minutes they’re deciding whether they’re about to be on ESPN, their app, or they’re about to tune into you. So I like to start with a story, with a hook, with a question, with a joke, with an invitation, with a challenge. But my first two minutes are always very intentional and my last two minutes are always very intentional. The middle is intentional as well. But I’m gonna make sure those first two minutes and those last two minutes are strong because that’s when people are making their concluding decisions about what you said. Yeah.
— So when you watch a presentation that’s average in effectiveness, what would you say are some of the most common mistakes that are easiest to correct?
— Number one, if you don’t care about what you’re saying, it’s gonna be hard for other people to care about it. So you can just tell if this person is not passionate about whatever it is that they’re talking about. And if you’re not passionate, find somebody else that’s passionate about it and talk about it, or go in a room and find a passion. But passionless communication is the worst. You feel like, we feel like you feel giving it, you got a job to, somebody told you you had to say it and then somebody told us we had to listen to you say it, and it feels that way. So I would say find passion and make sure that you care about what you’re trying to communicate. And if you don’t, maybe ask if you’re the best person to communicate it. Another mistake is just not being, not knowing what you’re talking about well enough to make it interesting. You should know it really, really well, so that you can actually make it interesting to the people that are trying to hear it. If it’s not interesting, find somebody else to give it or do more study to make it, people relate to what relates to them. Yeah.
— So, you’re not passionate enough or you’re not prepared enough. I think a real key and you can’t overstate it. And we say it all the time, but you really have to bring you.
— That’s what I was just about to say. That is the most freeing thing because people will relate to you being you. Even if being you is not being a good speaker. And I would even throw that in there. Some people will say, don’t even say that, I’d say it. I’d say, «You know what, this isn’t something I normally do. I’m really nervous, but I’m gonna do it anyway». And you know what the crowd does? They start rooting for you.
— Yeah, you don’t have to be technically good. One of the best messages that I’ve ever heard was from one of the technically worst communicators that I’ve ever seen in my life. He made every mistake possible, but his emotion and heart for it was so real that all of the bad stuff made what was real better.
— Yep, yep. Yep, it doesn’t matter. And people would just start rooting for you. So they’re like, «Okay. Oh, ooh, that was funny. Look, good job, good job». Yeah. So if even if you’re doing a presentation for your team, bring them into the tension that you even feel, yeah, I work with you guys and all this, but this is hard for me, but I’m gonna do it anyway. Okay. And now they’re rooting for you. Now they’re encouraging and now you got a big win. And it feels good, it feels good.
— Yeah. Yeah. That I appreciate that. I hope it’s helpful to the community. I wanna hold up the book again.
— Yeah. Hold it up. Can we get a good angle?
— Yeah, we’ll get a good angle.
— And could we zoom in on that thing.
— «Disobedient God: Trusting a God Who Goes Off-Script». And I heard you preach on this and it’s one of the most powerful messages that I’ve heard. And we’re not here to communicate theology, although we don’t shy away from it.
— Yeah.
— But God doesn’t always make sense. He doesn’t always do what we expect him to do. And in leadership, how would you say that we prepare for the unexpected? Because it seems there’s more unexpected today than ever before.
— Yeah, so even with the book, it’s about disobedient God. But what I really talk about 'cause God’s gonna kind of gonna do his own thing, I just talk about our response. And what I’ve really been working on, even in myself the last two years, is my response as a leader and just how unchecked, how unfiltered, how I just let my responses be. And I could be much better with being intentional with how I’m choosing to respond even before I’m given the opportunity to respond. So my built-in instead of reactions, my built-in responses. So sometimes I’m hit with something and I’m not ready to talk about it in a way that it can be received well. So I need to tell myself and give myself permission to say, you know what, that’s a good point. Can I take some time to think about that and follow up in a day or so after I get some time to think about it? I would’ve never done that before, never. I don’t understand people that don’t know what they think. I know what I think every minute of the day. I know what I, so people that say, «Ooh, I need to take some time to think about that». I was like, «What do you mean? Is your brain not working? I know what I think about what you just said right now, and I can tell you,» but just because I can tell you doesn’t mean I can tell you in a way where you’re ready to receive it in a way that I would want you to receive it, so learning that about myself and giving myself permission to take time and not react all over the building, but to respond intentionally with healthy leadership. And sometimes that means, let me wait on that, let me think about that, let me reflect on that. Always marking my responses with kindness, with intentionality, and giving myself permission not to be the genius in the room. Sometimes as leaders, we just feel like we’re being asked, we should have an answer. You know what, I don’t have an answer for that, but let me think about. So knowing that you’ve got other options in your pocket, other than having to fix it in the moment. Yeah.
— That’s good. That’s good. So I will, next week I’ll spend an a full evening and then a half day with 45 of our top leaders. And I spent two days in a deep dive in the content on momentum, which is interesting because leaders love momentum, it’s their best friend, but I’ve never really studied it. I will spend, it may be a year of in and out of this content before I ever put a podcast on it or do a GLS talk on it. But what’s interesting is to teach, I was learning a ton. In the book, «Disobedient God,» was there a lesson that you learned when you were teaching others that stood out to you above all others?
— Oh, man, I was learning through this whole book. I was learning that we all have a longing inside of us and we all have a reach within us. And the thing that I was longing for and the thing that I was reaching for was not the same thing, Craig, I would have a hard day at work and on the way home knowing that I got food ready, I would stop at McDonald’s, oh, sesame seed bun, two all beef patties, special sauce and cheese. And that Big Mac I would get, it would hug me so tightly. It was like a warm blanket in my tummy. It was this beautiful comfort that I would have until about 20 minutes later. Then the Big Mac in my stomach would start fighting and it’d just go bad. But the point was, I was really longing for comfort, but I was reaching for Big Macs. And over time, that’s just not a good deal. As a leader, man, what am I really longing for? And what am I settling and reaching for and taking time to be aware of the difference. As I’m working on this book, that’s a part of the big thesis of it is, man, I’m longing for rest, but I’m reaching for sleeping pills because I’m trying to numb. But the rest that I’m really longing for is a rest that comes with knowing that God is in control of all things and He is sovereign, and to trust Him, even if that means waiting on Him. But I was just trying to get sleep. So recognizing that there are areas in my life that I have deep longings, but I have very shallow reachings. And how do I get those congruent to where I’m reaching for the thing that I’m longing for? That’s really what I’ve been wrestling through in my life. And that’s what we wrestle through in the book together.
— So as leaders, we’re very complicated.
— Yes.
— We start with often good intentions and then we have mixed motives that enter into our good intentions.
— Yes, yes.
— We have the purest of hearts. And then the next moment is the most impure, selfish desires.
— Yep. And that’s something we have to wrestle with all the time.
— Yeah.
— I’m curious, in your observation of leaders today, what would you say most are longing for? And where are we reaching for the wrong things or results?
— This may sound too mushy, too emotional. But I’m an emotional guy, Craig. I think at the end of the day, we’re all longing for a safe place to lay our head, like a safe place to where we don’t have to fix anything, we don’t have to be anything in anybody else. We don’t have to fulfill anybody’s expectations. I got a safe place to lay my head. And I think oftentimes we could reach for some pretty toxic things in an effort to try to find a safe space. But there’s been a season, where’s a good friend, who are friends, my spouse, my home, where’s a space where I don’t have to be a leader of anything, but I just get to be and exist and be loved and be incongruent, be all the things that I am, but be able to rest in that place with proper accountability at the right time. You know what I mean? But just the place to exhale and just be me and be loved as I am, be seen as I am, as complicated as I am. But I get to just be, I am that I am. And to be received as that. Oh, I think we all long for that.
— And so do you have that or do you have glimpses of that?
— Absolutely. I think, I mean, for me personally as a pastor, the safest place in the whole wide world is in the will of God, so I find that in God. But on a very practical level, I also have to find that in good friends. I got some really good friends and one of 'em was going through a really hard time and he just so happens to be a pastor as well. And it was one of those times where he was like, I knew I needed to go see him. He lives about an hour away. And I was like, «Man, I need to go see him. It is rough». But we are just gonna get our calendars to work out. So I said on the phone, I said, man, when the dust settles, let’s get some time together and we hung up. And I just felt bad and I felt God say to me, when the dust settles, really? When does the dust settle? When does this dust ever settle? So I called him back, I said, Hey, let’s meet in the dust. And I went and we hung out and we spent the day together, and we became a safe place for one another that day. And it was a safe place for him to lay his head. Lay his head, that’s the metaphor there though. We didn’t lay nothing. I’m just saying it was a, we was cool that day. We was cool, with the homies hung out and we was kicking it. But the idea is I found it and I have it. Sometimes, Craig, you gotta go after it and sometimes you gotta get it in the dust. Yeah.
— That’s really good. And I would just even pause and I can imagine there’s, we’ve got some leaders driving their car listening right now or working on the treadmill or who knows what they’re doing. And there’s something that’s a priority to them, and they’re thinking the same thing, that when the dust settles, I will, whatever. And I would just like to say to you, maybe you need to go and…
— Do it in the dust. Yeah.
— Do it in the dust. Do it. Do it. Do it now.
— Yeah.
— Good word. So I wanna be real clear to our community, «Disobedient God: Trusting a God Who Goes Off-Script». This is not a leadership book whatsoever. Although it will help you in your leadership.
— Absolutely.
— It’s a very Christ-centered book for someone that might be going through questioning times, maybe trying to believe in God, but things aren’t going their way, and so it is a good book and a good resource. I’m gonna dive into what I’m kind of gonna call the lightning round.
— Okay.
— And fire off a bunch of unrelated questions just for fun. Some may be even hard to answer on the spot, but you’re pretty good on the spot.
— Let’s go, baby.
— So, Bishop Albert Tate, do you have a favorite leadership quote?
— Yes. The most dangerous thing about ministry is you can learn how to do it.
— The most dangerous thing about ministry is you can learn how to do it.
— You can get really good at it.
— There’s a lot there.
— There’s a lot there.
— There’s a lot there.
— But it’s a lightning round, so we ain’t, let’s keep going, let’s go.
— The best leadership book you’ve read recently.
— What was that book you wrote? «How to Change Your Mind».
— «Winning the War in Your Mind».
— «Winning the War in Your Mind». That’s the best thing I’ve ever read because it’s on his podcast.
— That’s pretty nice of you. We’ll, I’ll just lay my head on you, like you said.
— Oh God.
— Biggest leadership pet peeve.
— Not extending grace as we’ve received it. Yeah. Thinking that there’s one side to the story and there’s always about seven. Yeah, yep.
— You love learning from leaders. If you spend a day with someone today, who’d you spend with?
— I’d spend a day with Oprah.
— Yeah. What’s something you’d wanna learn from Oprah?
— She is one of the most loving, kind, inspiring human beings, she’s like a ray of light and she also has a lot of money and she likes to eat really good food. So I figure if I can get a meal, some inspiration and a check. Whoo. Praise Jesus.
— So if you could get a Big Mac and a Blizzard.
— A Big Mac, a Blizzard and some Oprah. And if Gail come over and then we gossip about Tyler Perry. Oh my God.
— I don’t even know if I can get back to being serious. My next question is kind of serious.
— Okay. Okay. Is there something in your life recently that you’re really proud of that most people wouldn’t know about?
— So, this is random, but my son, my 11-year-old son starred in, «Grease Jr». And he’s a fifth grader and it’s for middle school, so they invited him to come up and he was actually the star of the play. And we went, he wouldn’t let us see him rehearse. He didn’t practice any songs, he didn’t practice anything at home. He wanted everything to be a surprise. So me and my wife are sitting there opening night, freaking out because we don’t know if this is about to be the most embarrassing thing we’ve ever seen or if our boy is good. Turns out our boy is good.
— Yeah, that’s a good thing.
— And we were so, so proud. So we were really proud of that.
— On a side note, one thing I like to do is make connections and I see connections. And I’ve asked this question to dozens of world class leaders and what’s one of the most personal things you’re excited about? And almost every single one immediately goes to family. So, something to think about. While we’re trying to conquer the world in our leadership and we’re most proud of what happens at home.
— Absolutely.
— Just worth noting.
— Always. That’s good.
— Final question, if you could give an word of encouragement to a leader that’s discouraged right now, 'cause there’s a lot of people hurting right now, a lot of leaders. What would you say?
— I would say it may surprise you to discover that the most important thing you do as a leader, the number one most important thing you do as a leader. Friend of mine, Pastor Ray Johnston said this, the number one thing you do as a leader, when I said it is almost gonna be underwhelming, but then you’re going to get it. And then you’re gonna be like, «I think he’s right». The most important thing you can do as a leader is stay encouraged. Just think about it. If you mess around and get discouraged, all other urges come outta discouragement. It’s hard to lead well, it’s hard to plan well, hard to do anything if you’re discouraged, so that’s your most important job. So I would say every day, make that your first priority to fight for. Encouragement usually comes from an attitude of gratitude, being thankful for what is, while you mourn and grieve the things that are not. Just the fact that you got up this morning. Just the fact that you got breath in your body. You can find something to be encouraged about. There’s a sense of gratitude. It’s not minimizing what’s going wrong. It’s helping you to adjust your perspective and appreciate a proper appreciation for what’s going right. Can I just tell you it’s not as bad as you think and everything will be okay and it will get better. This is not your stopping place. You’re just passing through here. Stay in courage. You’ll be amazed at what you could accomplish if you don’t quit.
— That’s a good word.
— Yeah.
— I was on my treadmill at home on a day where I didn’t feel encouraged and I was listening to a podcast and they talked about how sometimes your physical posture can change your mood, and so I lifted my hands up while I was walking, kinda like I was celebrating a victory.
— Wow.
— And it was amazing how I felt just slightly encouraged.
— Wow.
— Something that small.
— Wow.
— And so, maybe just lift your hands up and act like you’re winning.
— Come on. And start believing that you can, and so stay encouraged. Great word. Albert, we got a lot of people who may have heard of you the first time. Where can they find out more and connect with you?
— So Albert Tate on like Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all that stuff, alberttate.com also. And then we’ve got a great church down there in Southern California. So if you’re into that or if you’re ever around, you could check us out at madeforfellowship.com or by popping us on a Sunday.
— And the first week of August, if they got some time.
— Come on. We will be together at the Global Leadership Summit where we are helping leaders get better because everything gets better when the leader gets better.
— We will put a link in our Leader Guide on how to get.
— Come as our guests.
— We may even look for, we might look for a Albert Tate discount.
— Yeah, I was about to say, can we give like a discount code or something?
— I’m gonna say right now we’ve got seven amazing leaders in the room.
— They can figure it out.
— And your assignment is to negotiate a Global Leadership.
— Discount code, Albert Tate.
— Discount code, Albert Tate. I don’t know what it’ll be, but it’ll be in the Leader Guide. There will be an Albert prophesy.
— Oh, the prophecy’s already gone out.
— 'Cause have I already got permission. There’ll be an Albert Tate.
— I’ve got a beam on my phone already. It’s already done.
— Discount.
— Discount.
— Personal guests with Bishop Albert Tate.
— Come on. When was the last time somebody was on this podcast and you walked away with a level of discount? Come on.
— You can spend that extra money on a Big Mac or a Blizzard. And I wanna just tell you, thank you again for being a part of our community. This content I know is gonna be helpful. And if you share on social media link Albert, link to me and someone on our teams might share your post. Again, I wanna tell you to get the Leader Guide, go to life.church/leadershippodcast, and we’ll get you the Albert Tate discount as well as additional content links to his books where you can find Albert and questions to go over with your team that I promise you can be helpful. And keep investing in your leadership. Growing your leadership. 'Cause we love to say, you can help me out if you know it. Everyone wins when the leader gets better.
— The leader gets better. And stay encouraged. That’s my tagline. He got his, that’s mine. Stay encouraged.