Craig Groeschel - Confidence and Courage in Business (with Amy Porterfield)
When I went out on my own and became my own boss, every insecurity that could come flooding in did. I didn't feel like I was enough. I didn't think I was strategic enough. I didn't have the right answers. I didn't have enough education. I wasn't... I didn't look the part, like all the different things came up.
— Hey, welcome to our YouTube community. Today I am honored to bring you a very powerful interview with Amy Porterfield, who's been called the Queen of Online Marketing. She's the New York Times bestselling author of the book, "Two Weeks Notice: Find the Courage to Quit Your Job, Make More Money, Work Where You Want, and Change the World". She's the host of the "Online Marketing" podcast with almost 50 million downloads, and she's taken over 50,000 students through her online courses. To our YouTube community, be sure and subscribe and share. Little shout out to Dudley from Cape Town, South Africa, Sampson from Nigeria, Jane from Zambia, Andrew from Ukraine, and Darren from Cooksville, Tennessee. Thank you guys for commenting. If you have questions, comments, tell us in the comment section where you're watching from. We've got people from all over the world. If you're ready, comment right now, "I'm ready". Are you ready? Comment, "I'm ready". Let's go to the interview now with Amy. Well, Amy, I've been waiting to have you on for a long time. Welcome to the podcast.
— Well, thanks so much for having me, Craig. It's great to be here.
— It is an honor to have you, and we're gonna talk more about your new book. I'm gonna go and hold it up for now. "Two Weeks Notice: Find the Courage to Quit Your Job, Make More Money, Work Where You Want, and Change the World". Congratulations on your new New York Times bestselling book.
— Thank you so, so very much. It's been a wild ride.
— Well, I can only imagine, and I want to ask you about the book, but I wanna dive in and first get a little bit of your leadership story because what you've been able to accomplish is quite profound. Your influencing a lot of people. And I kind of wanna start, Amy, at the beginning, and this definition's not original to me, but someone said that leadership is influence. At its core, at the very root, that's what leadership is. I'm curious, when was the first time that you recognized that you actually had influence in the lives of other people?
— Ooh, such a great question. You know, I always felt like I was born to be a leader and I don't think I was born to be a lot of things, but to be a leader, yes. And so in high school, I really actually felt it. I was a cheerleader, captain of my cheerleading squad, and I was involved in leadership in high school and I always have been drawn to inspire and empower and get my voice out there. So I think that's when I kind of started honing in on it. I wouldn't have known it was leadership back then. But looking back, it definitely was.
— Right. So, in the early years, probably when you started to recognize that you had some leadership gifts, I'm also guessing that you had some insecurities as well, because almost all of us do. Can you tell me, because this might help some people that are listening right now, how did you work through some insecurities to grow in your confidence as a young and aspiring leader?
— You know, I have been very insecure for a lot of my journey, to be quite honest. It ebbs and flows for sure. And I think where I really started to notice it is when I started to build my own business. And so I was in corporate for many, many, many years. And definitely the insecurities came up there, but I wasn't in charge of really big projects. But when I went out on my own and became my own boss, every insecurity that could come flooding in did. I didn't feel like I was enough. I didn't think I was strategic enough. I didn't have the right answers. I didn't have enough education. I wasn't... I didn't look the part, like all the different things came up. And so I've navigated those for a really long time. And in my book I talk about this difference between confidence and courage, and I didn't have a lot of confidence, but I don't think you start out with a lot of confidence. I feel confidence is earned, but courage is that faith that you have in a higher power or in yourself. And so I've had to rely on courage a lot of the way through my journey. And it's absolutely been something that's helped me immensely.
— That's an interesting perspective. I haven't heard someone share kind of that contrast before between courage and confidence. And to me it's almost like, you need confidence and a little stupidity, right? When you're starting out, just like you don't even know what you don't know. And so you would say that confidence is earned. Can you take me through, and I'd love to know, you mentioned a couple of insecurities, that you're not enough, you weren't strategic enough. Could you pick one of those, maybe one that stands out to you the most, and tell me how you actually earned the right to be confident in that area? Because I think Amy, as you know, we're, you know, we have so many in our leadership community that just feel inadequate. Most of us don't feel like that we're enough. And you have overcome, you started from scratch and built something really special. I'd like to know that journey of how you built confidence, what it took, and do you own it today? Are you always confident or do you still backslide into some of the insecurities? So if you can just walk us through that, that'd mean a lot.
— Okay. So when I talk about this idea of confidence is earned, what I mean by that is when you start to put yourself out there, and in my case start to build a business, and I do my first launch and it doesn't work out, and then I do another launch and I make a little money, and I do another launch and I start to grow it, that is where the confidence comes in. I have a proven track record. It might be small, but like inch by inch, it's starting to work. So my confidence starts to grow. I'm earning it, I'm putting in the time, I'm putting in the work, but before it starts to work, and it took me a good two years before my business really started to work, that's where I had to rely on the courage because the number one insecurity I had is that I wasn't good enough. I've always struggled with my weight. As a woman, this is kind of a big through line that we see a lot where I didn't wanna get on video, I didn't wanna show my face. I didn't wanna put myself out there. So I felt like I wasn't good enough to be on camera or I wasn't strategic enough in the sense of I didn't have a business degree. I didn't know how to build an online business. I was making it up as I went. So it just came back to I am not good enough. And so every time something didn't work, I would reinforce that. But here's how I came out of it. And why today I think I absolutely have a lot of confidence and I absolutely backslide at moments, but then can catch myself pretty quickly, is because I got clear on what I wanted. It all comes down to your why. And for me, this is something I teach to all my students. And that is, what do you want? Why do you want it? And in the early years when I was still in my corporate job, I wanted to call the shots. I wanted to be the boss. I wanted to work when I wanted, where I wanted, how I wanted. And I wanted to be more creative than I could. And as a woman, I knew I was hitting that glass ceiling. And so when I got clear on what I wanted, in the beginning, it was very selfish. I wanted more freedom. And so every time I would get knocked down, I did my first launch, I made $267. I thought I'd make like $100,000. So I was devastated, got knocked down. But I was like, oh, but I want this bad enough. I'm gonna try something new. I'm gonna change it up. So I got back up and that was all courage and faith for me. Absolutely. Until it started to work. And as I mentioned, I would do launch after launch after launch and it started to click. And so that's when I started to step into confidence. And when I would backslide, ask myself what did I want. Now, 14 years in, what I want is to help people. Like, I have found my mission. I feel as though I can help people step into a world of entrepreneurship and become their own boss and make as much money and as much impact as they want. That is my why today. That why is so strong that it helps when I get knocked down to get back up really quick. So really to me, courage into confidence, it's really about your why.
— That's super interesting. And I would love to sit down maybe with, you know, a thousand leaders and talk through their why. Because it seems like most people do often start out with a selfish why, you know, like, I want to do this on my own terms. I wanna be a leader, I wanna be important, I wanna have influence. And I think the truly most successful leaders don't start with I, but they start with you. It's like, I want to help you achieve your dreams. I wanna help you be more successful. I wanna help you have a bigger ministry. I wanna help you. So I would be curious, and we can't solve, answer the question now, but how many of the best of the best of the best, their why is more driven by you than it does by I? And I think that's a really great insight and it shows in what you do that all of your content is really focused on the listener, on someone else. And that's a big compliment to you. You know, you blew by something and you mentioned a handful of failures, just one after the other in the early years. Could you pick one or two of those failures that you experienced? And kind of walk me through, what did it feel like when you didn't hit your target? How did that shake you? What'd you say to yourself? How'd you overcome it? Because I think there's a lot of people would look at you and say, man, she's got it all going on, and they have no idea the pain of the journey and the price you paid along the way. Give us some insight to a failure that really stung and what you learned from it and how you grew through it.
— So, coming back to that first launch. So I was one year into my business and I decided to create my first digital course. At the time, I was doing more consulting, coaching on marketing and social media, but I knew that wasn't my end all be all. I didn't really love doing one-on-one work. And so I wanted to get out of that as fast as possible. So I rushed to create my first digital course, had no idea what I was doing, and chose a topic that I wasn't an expert in. So when I teach my students today, I always say, you're looking for that 10% edge. You want to have gotten results for yourself or for somebody else, and you need to be 10% ahead of those you serve so you can lead the way. Well, I didn't know that back then. So I decided, this is kind of ironic, since I just launched my first book, I taught authors how to use social media to launch their book. I had no business teaching that, but I was desperate. In the first years of building a business or anything new, there's a little bit of a desperate energy. I've gotta make this work. I've gotta prove that I can do this. So I kind of just grasp on to anything. And so I launched this first course, like I said, I made $267 and I cried for about seven days, like secretly, behind closed doors, I was devastated. And what I made it mean, and thank God I didn't give too much time to this, I made it mean that I wasn't cut out to be an entrepreneur. I looked around on social media and it looked like everybody else that was doing what I wanted to be doing was making millions, which we know is not true. I didn't know at the time that social media is everybody's highlight reel. And so I looked around thinking, what's wrong with me? I'm not cut out to do this. I'm always going to be someone's employee 'cause I can't figure this out on my own. And luckily I have a husband who's like, my biggest cheerleader and after a few days he said, enough is enough. You need to get yourself together. You need to stop telling yourself this lie. Let's try it again. Let's put you out there again and let's do it a different way. And thank God I had him. And I think we all, as entrepreneurs and as leaders, we need somebody who believes in us just a little bit more than we believe in ourselves. Because that changed everything. And I know you have a wonderful wife that likely believes in you just a little bit more than you believe in yourself. And I know that we are so very fortunate, but if you don't have that person, go find them. Because Hoby, my husband, helped me get back in the game and that's really what changed things for me. But at the time, I told myself I wasn't cut out to do this.
— Yeah. Hoby's a great dude and I'm thankful that I have Amy as well. And I cannot even imagine how difficult it would be if you don't have some form of support system of people around you that are cheering you on. Because the truth of the matter is, nobody is successful in a vacuum at all. Ever, ever, ever, ever. It's often a result of the people that are around us. You have a philosophy that is interesting to me and you give credit to, you know, you only made $287 the first time, now you do make millions, and you have a eight figure business, and you credit your eight figure business. One of the principles is that you say, you do the same thing over and over and over again, just better. I'm interested, I can feel that when I look at what you do because everything feels like it's gone through a really scrutinizing process to make it better and better. Can you tell me a little bit about the process? How do you measure what you do and how do you determine how to make something better?
— Ooh, I love this question. So the number one goal in my business is that we are our own benchmark. We try not to ask everybody else what their numbers look like and judge ourselves against everybody else's results because we just wanna compete against ourselves. And so early on, we started tracking our metrics. And I'm not a big numbers girl, but I really had to focus on what numbers matter the most. So let's say we would do a launch, and I have a digital course that I sell. So we do a launch of this digital course and early on we would track our numbers. And in the early days I didn't have any goals. I was just like, okay, we made some money. That's exciting. I didn't know if I could make any. But then I had to get serious and start saying, okay, if we made, let's say, $10,000 on this launch and we converted at 5%, can we convert the next time at 6%? So we started to compete against ourselves very early on and really keep the numbers close by. When I work with Tony Robbins, one of the lessons I learned is this power of debriefing. Everything he did after he got off stage, after we did a launch, he would immediately sit down with us and say, okay, what worked, what didn't work? And he'd get feedback from everybody. He'd give his feedback and we'd document it all. So the next time we went back out, we had all those notes. So I adopted that in my company as well. After every single launch, we do a debrief, what worked, what didn't work. And we put together a report. We take the time to do so, might take a few hours, but then we're done. But I always go back to that, so does my marketing team, before we do our next launch. And so, how do we know what to fix? How do we know how to get better? We usually take two or three areas that either worked really well and ask ourselves, how can we enhance this? Or take an area that didn't work really well and say, how can we fix this? But we're only gonna do that with two or three areas. For instance, show up rate for a webinar. I just did one today. So we have a bootcamp that I've done three times now. This was my third. And we wanted to increase our show up rate. And so I think we went from something like 35% to 48% show up rate today. We just did this. And that was one of the metrics we were tracking. And the reason it went up is we were intentional about it. We didn't increase everything, just that show up rate today. It meant sending text messages, it meant doing DM's in Instagram. We tried some new things and it worked. And so that's really what we do. We just choose a few things and we go deep.
— So I'm gonna ask you a question that's impossible to answer. I'm gonna have you just take a wild stab. In a year, and just gimme a wild stab. And I'm gonna illustrate something in the back end of this. How many different things do you think that you actually measure? Wild guess, wild guess. Pick a number.
— In a year.,I think probably only 10 things.
— Okay. And, so why would you limit it to 10 and how do you select those 10?
— I would limit it to 10 because the more numbers I have, the more overwhelming it feels for me and my team. There's only so many things that we can do. I have a small team, I have 20 people on my team, which some people listening are like, holy cow, that's so huge. But for the volume we do, it's a pretty small team. And so I know that we can't get to everything. So if I keep their eye on what's most important, I know that the levers will be pulled correctly. And the reason why we chose these specific levers are they're the areas that I know that I'm good at. So for instance, show up right on a webinar. I know I can do webinars well. Conversion rate on a webinar,. I know I can control that. That's another thing. What can I actually control? I can get better at a webinar, I can get better at selling. And so that's one area. Email open rates. We're fanatics about email. Open rates, click through rates, we're checking those all the time because that's something that we can control and it's an area of strength. Let me give you an example of something we probably don't track close that could benefit us, but we don't. Probably social media engagement. I don't love social media. It's not my most favorite thing to do. We do it, it's almost like a necessary evil and I make the best of it, but it's not where I wanna spend my time. This last year I built a TikTok channel because I had a book coming out and I thought, I've gotta have a TikTok channel, it's gonna explode. I'm gonna put everything into it. And I don't like doing TikTok. And so if you don't like it, it's likely not gonna thrive. So I just said, why did I do this? So we're just gonna cut bait. That's not something I'm gonna track. So I kind of lean toward my strengths and I track those, and I'm intentional of those and it's allowed me to build a multimillion dollar business.
— Well, I wanna wrap back, 'cause you've said a lot that's really valuable and I want to drive a few things to those who are listing. You're a fanatic about numbers. And it's interesting to me how often I'll talk to a leader and ask them some question about kind of basic numbers and they're like, ah, I'm not quite sure. And so, I think you would say, to be really, really good you have to be a student of your numbers. Then interestingly enough, you said you probably measure around 10 things. One of the things I wanted to ask you about, and I may ask more specifically, but we know that growth creates complexity and complexity kills growth. So you have to really work to keep things simple. And, great compliment. The 20 person team is not a small team, but for the volume of your impact, it's really lean. And so you've worked to keep it really, really, really focused. And by measuring maybe 10 or so things, you keep the things that are most important out in front. That's super, super important. So if someone's starting something, know your numbers. If you're building something, know your numbers. And then know what you're measuring, and do debriefs. I like what my friend said about doing debriefs. Sometimes something works great and so people don't debrief it. But you really need to understand why it works. Because if you don't understand why it's working when it is, you won't know how to fix it when it's not. So the debrief is a massively important part. I wanna move on. You've got something, and you've got about five times as many episodes on your podcast, which I always respect because I don't know how you get 'em all done. But in episode 531, you talk about the four step checklist that you use before adding something new to your business. Can you kind of talk us through, since you are really, really focused, since you do the same things over and over again and doing 'em better and you're not adding a lot that's new, how do you determine when it is right to bring something new into what you do?
— Ooh, I love this question. Well, one of the biggest pieces of bringing something new into your business is really looking at what is working and what can we optimize. So when I was working for Tony another thing I learned is that an entrepreneur that is constantly reinventing the wheel, starting from scratch, is someone that is going to have a slow growth. Because always starting from scratch means that you've gotta figure it out every single time. And the reason why it happens a lot is because as entrepreneurs, most of us are very creative. We love variety. The shiny objects are definitely gonna get our attention 'cause we're moving fast and we wanna change things up. I think one of my strengths is that I actually don't love variety. I love going deep with just a few things. And so what I learned early on in my business is in order to, before I add something new, I first have to ask myself, what's already working and what can I optimize so I do not have to start from scratch. And that has been something that has helped me immensely. Also, simplifying things. You used that word earlier and I'm really a fan of a simple business. And so when you add something new, what are you going to take off your plate? What is going to be retired? What is no longer going to get your focus? Because as you know Craig, when you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. It just happens. It's how the universe works. And so when I add something new, I have to ask myself what's gonna come off the table or what's no longer going to get the attention that it was getting? I'm only one person, or we're only one small team. And so that's another area that I absolutely focus on.
— It seems to me that a big part of your success is focus, meaning when you do get more successful, you have more options and more options can actually be more distracting. And it seems like you've done a really, really good job of saying no to what could be good opportunities to continue to say yes to the things that are the best. And that's not easy to do in in in what we do. I'm curious, is there something that you said no to recently that is shocking to people?
— You know, so I just launched this book, and one of the things I decided not to do was a lot of in-person interviews, and I recently just canceled some big interviews in New York because I knew it was going to take me off my game. Getting on a plane, traveling even though it was for a few days, absolutely kind of wrecks my flow in terms of what I do. So much of what I do is online. Like today, I did that live training. Here I am in my own house, in my own studio. And so I tend to say no to a lot of in-person travel. I also don't like to leave my husband and my dog. My son's at college, so he's not here, but I am a homebody. And so if you're gonna build a business that you love, you've gotta do it on your terms. And in my early days, I said yes to everything. I was so scared I would miss out. FOMO, fear of missing out, was very real for me. But in my maturity of growing my business, I realized I'm not going to miss out on something just 'cause I'm not there. I could create my own success here. So I tend to say no to a lot of in-person things.
— That's really smart. And you think about if you do a live in-person television show, it comes in then it goes, but if you do a podcast from your house, it lives on forever. Meaning there's more opportunity for someone to hear this interview six months from now and there's almost no opportunity to hear the TV show you did on the road. So in that vein, is this true, and if it is, I might try to argue with you back and forth and see if you can convince me. Is it true you're doing a 32-hour work week?
— Oh yes, that is true. However, during my book launch that was not true. I threw that out the window. But I'm back into a normal schedule and we work Monday through Thursday, eight hours a day, and we take Friday, Saturday, and Sunday off. And the reason for that is I really wanted to create an environment where my employees, including myself, we loved the lives that we lived. And I was working my life away. For much of my business, I worked six, seven days a week. And I get scared to say that to people because my students will say, but Amy, maybe that's necessary to create what you created and now that you have the engine going, you can take a break. I actually don't believe that 'cause I've seen so many of my students and peers start with shorter work weeks and have had great success. And I didn't want it just for me, you know, I teach people how to quit their job and start their own businesses and I have a team of 20 full-time employees that I don't want to quit me. I don't want them quitting. And so I wanted to create an environment that felt different than the nine to five grind. And so yeah, we do work a four day work week, but when we are launching we add those Fridays back in.
— Sure. And I think that's smart because you want to be strategic with your time and there's times to sprint, there's times to run, in a more reasonable manner. I'll tell you what I like about the 32-hour work week is also what I like about even, you know, I'll leave the office today at 3:30. I probably did get here earlier than most people, but I have a hard end to the work day. And what it does, if you have some kind of parameters around you're not gonna work until you're finished, 'cause you're never finished, right? If you have a hard end to your week or you're day, what it does is it forces you to say no to things you might have said yes to otherwise. It teaches you to delegate some things that you don't need to be doing. It makes you way more selective and it makes you make decisions faster. And so a lot of times, and we're finding even in a lot of businesses, chiropractors, eye doctors, they'll do more business in a four day focus period than they would've done in a five day work period. Which, if people can do that, I think that's really, really smart and effective.
— I love that you said that. I will say when we moved to a four day work week about two years ago, the four days became more important. Less meetings because you can't get your work done if you're in meetings all day. And more focus. So what my team is not doing is they're likely not running to a dentist appointment in the middle of the afternoon on a Wednesday. That's what Fridays are for. All the personal stuff. Sometimes it happens. But we had to get way more focused with that time. But I wanted to touch on something that, you know, I've gotten to meet you and your beautiful wife in person and one thing that's unique about you, and I really do mean this, is that you don't come with a lot of ego. And when you ask me that question, what are some things that you've said no to, or, you know, gotten better at, and I think as a leader we say yes to a lot of things based on our ego. It's gonna make us look good, it's gonna make us sound good. I am very guilty of this. When I launched my book, I wanted the Today Show so bad. And I've been told, and I don't know it's true, they don't sell books, they do sell books. It's good, it's bad, I don't care. My ego was tied to, I gotta get that morning show. And I never got it, for the record. And I looked back and I thought, that was pure ego. I wanted it to make me look good. I wanted to say I got that. And so I've been starting to explore as a leader where my ego is showing up and where it's not serving me. And when I say no, I typically am saying no to things that would make my ego feel really good. But at the end of the day, it's not good for me or my business.
— That's a great thought. Have you read the book "Ego Is the Enemy"?
— No. And I think I need to, 'cause it's like a really big top of mind for me. "Ego is the Enemy". Okay. I'll check it out.
— I wish I could quote the author, but we'll link to it in the notes. And I read it years ago one time and it was helpful then. But that's good when you can actually identify where your ego is drawing you to the wrong places. Because all of us as leaders, if we're not careful, we'll move toward more of a self-centered, egotistical leadership style. And that's always counterproductive. It's never, ever helpful. And it's good to recognize that. I wanna ask you a couple of questions kind of in your sweet zone and spot. And then I wanna shift to the book because it's too good not to talk about. But I think you've been called the Queen of Online Marketing. Is that true?
— I would never call myself that, but I've heard it a few times.
— I think I've heard that a couple times. And so you would be a massive proponent of driving good, strong email lists, correct?
— Yes. I'm obsessed with teaching people how to grow an email list.
— So, tell me why and then I wanna ask you a couple of questions about it. Why does email matter so much in today's business world?
— A lot of people will say, you know what? Social media is what's driving my business. I post on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok or wherever. And I spend a lot of time on Facebook and they'll tell me how many followers they have, and all of that. And what I'll tell them is that when you build your business on social media, you are building your business on rented land. You do not own TikTok, you do not own Instagram. And at any time, Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk can change that algorithm and boom, your business changes. Also, studies have shown that email marketing converts four times higher than any social media posts that you put out there. And you own your email list. At any time, I can send an email. I can do this today. I've done this in the past as an experiment before I've stepped on stage talking about email lists. I can send an email with an offer that I've had for years, remind my audience that I have that offer and I will make thousands of dollars before I go to bed tonight. I can't say that for social media. It's very fickle. And so email marketing will make you more money and solidify your relationship with your audience. And it's wild how many people have built businesses without email lists. And what I'll tell 'em is it will get so much easier if you start to build that email list.
— That's good. So I'm gonna preface this because I don't want someone tuning out. They might say, well, I don't have an email list, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when you're passionate about open rate, what you're passionate about is you want to add value to whoever is on the other side. And so, to someone listening right now, they're on the treadmill, they're like, I don't have an email list, I'm done with this thing. Well you have employees, you have team members, you have a church, you have volunteers, whatever. And you're trying to get some message to them. Could you tell us how you get people to open an email? What are you putting in there? And then I wanna try to convert that to whatever we do. How do we get people's attention? If I'm sending a video to church members, I want them to open it. I want to communicate value. If I'm announcing something that we're doing, I want people to feel valued. And so I'm gonna convert whatever you say into different areas but what do you do to get someone to open it?
— So the first thing I do is what my dad used to tell me every day. He'd drop me off from school in second grade and I'd get out of the car and he'd say, Amy, before you go, it's better to listen than to talk. He would tell me that all the time and I'd always get "talking" on my report card. But I've taken that into my business because before I write an email, before I put out a social post, before I do anything to attract my audience, I have to really understand what are they thinking and where are they right now. So here's how I teach this. I teach it by this concept of an invisible bridge. So if you want people to get into your church, you want more people in seats at your church, that's your goal. Well, before they get their butts in those seats, you've gotta walk them over an invisible bridge. That invisible bridge basically is, what do they need to believe, understand, or really start to think about before they're ever ready to take that action you want them to take? What do they need to believe? What do they need to understand? What mindset shift do they need to make before they're ever ready to put their butt in that seat? Or to buy your product, or to get on your webinar, whatever it might be. So when I'm writing an email, I'm thinking about where are they right now and what do I need to say to them to start getting them to walk across that invisible bridge? Is it a question I need to ask them? I need to meet them right where they're at, so do I need to say, I know what you're thinking and put it out there? So for example, for my audience, when I wanna help people build digital courses, one of the things that I know why they're not doing it is they have no idea what topic they would choose. So an email subject line, it's the subject line that gets those emails open. But whatever you're doing, it's that first thing you're saying to them. And I might say, here's how to come up with your first topic of a digital course. I'm meeting them right where they're at, so I can help walk them over that invisible bridge. So what do they need to know, understand, be aware of, believe, before they're ever ready to take that action you want them to take? That's the kind of stuff you're talking about in your email, your social or whatever you're doing.
— Sure. So that's so powerful, because we can apply that to anything. And I like the way, Amy, you talk about them. You want to get inside their mind, their heart. You want to know what problems they're facing. So if we're doing a meeting and it's Wednesday at 8:00 AM, you probably wanna think about, what was their morning like? What are they coming in? what do they have for the rest of the week? What do they care about? And then adapt your message to whatever's gonna help leverage their interest in order to bring about your desired outcome. I like the way you said, and I wrote it down, do you want to think about what do they believe or what do they need to believe? What do they need to understand? What do they need to think? The way I teach it to our younger communicators here is I call it know, feel, do. So if you're ever gonna stand up, and like at church, they may make announcements. I forbid people to make announcements. We don't announce. We never announce, we only lead. We're not gonna announce. We're gonna lead. We're gonna lead to an outcome. And before we say anything, it's what do I want them to know, so there's information, what do I want them to feel, because without emotion, truth doesn't just move us to action. We have to feel something. What do I want them to know? What do I want them to feel? What do I want them to do? And if you can't clearly articulate those three things, then don't even attempt to start. And I think you're going through a very similar process in your emails which leads to a high click through rate, leads to tremendous profit, most importantly, leads to changed lives on the other side that people are doing something that adds value to them. Let's talk about how you do it. The book, New York Times bestselling book, "Two Weeks Notice: Find the Courage to Quit Your Job, Make More Money, Work Where You Want, and Change the World". To be honest, my first thought is, I don't wanna talk about this book 'cause I have a bunch of team members I wanna keep here, kinda like you. You've got 20 of 'em that you want to keep. I'm all about retention, I'm all about creating the right environment. But there are some people that need to go out and do something. Tell us your story. Years ago, you had a hunch you could do something on your own. How'd you have the courage to make that leap?
— So I was working for Tony Robbins for almost seven years and Tony had a meeting where he brought in a bunch of online business owners to do something like a focus group and talk about their businesses. I was brought in that day to take notes. And so I sat at the side table to take notes and these guys, they were all men and they started to talk about their businesses and they talked about freedom. They talked about being creative and building things from scratch and designing new products and programs. And I just realized they all were calling the shots. And never in my life have I ever called the shots. I grew up with a really strict father. He was my first boss. And then from there I just had bosses throughout all my career, of course. And for the first time in my life, I thought, I wanna do something on my own. And so it was really, really heavy on my heart and it took about a year to kind of figure out how I was going to do this. And about a year from that fateful meeting, I went out on my own and started my business. And it's been 14 years now. And in the book I talk about how to build a runway to quit a nine to five job and to start your own business. What does that look like? Because the book's called "Two Weeks Notice," but I expect it will take people a little while. 3, 6, 9 months to actually get out and go out on their own. So what does that runway look like? And I help them design it and then I help people get started with the business. Like, what exactly to do. So for me, I started doing social media for small businesses, but I realized I did not like that. And so about two years in is when I started to build the business I have today. So now I teach people how to grow their email list and how to take their expertise and turn it into digital courses so that they can build businesses and sell online.
— Congratulations on 14 years of doing this.
— Thank you.
— And so when you started the business, that was a big jump from only working for bosses. The bosses call the shots, now you are the boss, right? How would you hope that your team members would describe you? What qualities do you hope they see in you as a boss?
— The first one is, I hope they feel I'm compassionate. We have a value in my business that you never know what somebody's going through. And we lead with compassion no matter what we do. And I really want my team to feel that way. Yesterday, one of my team members sent me a text and she said, did you hear about my mom? My mom has breast cancer and she has to get surgery this week, and I hadn't heard yet. And so we were talking about it, going back and forth, and then she, the last text she sent me was, I love that I have a boss that I could talk about all of this with, and then still talk about the business strategy. And that was like the biggest compliment that I got from her. So leading with compassion and really understanding who my team members are is important to me and I hope they feel that way. And then the other one is, I hope that they see me as a leader who takes risks. And I think that's important. I don't expect them to be very risky in my business, but I do expect myself to take the risks, build the vision for them, and encourage them that we have the ability to do what I want to do. And I think it's important that we step outside of our comfort zone on a regular basis. I think if you asked any of my team, they'd say that they were uncomfortable more often than not. And I see that as a really good thing. I wanna shake things up, I wanna push ourselves to the limit. And so I think that I do that with them.
— I think you've got a unique ability, and I think as all leaders we should work toward this, you can both drive something, meaning you get results and you're not gonna sit around and let things stay flat, but you do it with compassion. And that shows in the way you treat people, in your hospitality and how you care for people. And so as leaders, we need to make sure that we do have all of those qualities. So if those are two of the top qualities you would want in yourself, you've got 20 team members. If you look at them, what would you say... Is there a quality that stands out above all the others that if I want to add someone to the team, they better have this? What's one of the top qualities, most consistent qualities you see in your most effective team players?
— Coachable. One of our values is that everybody needs to be coachable. And what I mean by that is that, you know, everyone comes with skill sets and knowledge into our company, and we expect a lot from our employees in terms of their ability to make things happen. But I also don't think, expect them to know exactly how we do everything. And if they keep an open heart and an open mind of, let's try it this way, maybe we could talk to that person in a different way and change our communication style. If they're open to being coached, then I never have a problem with anyone because I know that their heart is in the right place. So that's a big one for us as well.
— So I'm guessing for them to be coachable, you have to be coachable, correct?
— Yeah, absolutely. And I've gotta follow my sword more often than not. I mess up a lot. I find myself saying sorry more than I'd like to admit. But if I can be coachable and if I could see the errors of my way, and I encourage them to give me that feedback, then I feel as though it can be reciprocated.
— So can you remember a recent time someone gave you feedback that was maybe difficult to hear?
— Oh, absolutely. It happens quite a lot. I have friends that I encourage to kind of call me out, and my employees as well. I think recently one of my employees was going to take time off when I didn't think it was appropriate. And I was hotheaded in the moment and I was mad like, why would you ever take that time off? It was during my book launch, it was opening day, it was a big deal, but I took it very personal. I wrote a book, that doesn't mean everybody on my team feels that invested in it. And so they had asked for that time off and I was so hotheaded about it, not to them, but to their director. And I actually didn't need the feedback. I got off the phone, I knew that I was in the wrong and I quickly picked that phone back up and said that was ridiculous. I did not need to address it in that way. I understand where this guy's coming from, let's figure this out. So I usually can catch it. But yeah, they'll definitely call me out.
— Well, you said earlier, and again, you just blew by it, you said, I encourage people to do this in friends. And I think that's really important because a lot of times if someone works for you, or even if they're a friend, they just don't feel the freedom to do that. And the more successful you are, the less likely people are to give you helpful feedback. And that really makes us vulnerable. We need feedback, we need coaching, we need help all the time. And so I think the fact that you encourage people to do it is helpful. And I just wanna encourage those who are listening right now to not assume that they're gonna do this. And not only encourage it, but applaud it. When someone does bring me feedback, I often try to say thank you so much, because not everybody will do that, but what you did was really helpful to me. And so you encourage it and you applaud it. And then if you'll create an environment where you seek and receive feedback, then your team members will do it as well. And the sky's the limit to what you can do if you're coachable, right?
— It's so true. And one of the things that my team doesn't necessarily know, if they hear this, they will, but when it doesn't work, one area I really have to work on, and it's an area I'm weak on in that I'm working on now, is really beating myself up behind the scenes about it. So when I do get the feedback, and it is very honest and real, I accept it, I take it and I'm great upfront. But when I'm alone, I'm really hard on myself. Like, why did I do that? And sometimes it's hard for me to let it go. So I think the next step in my evolution of growth is I take the feedback and I accept it. And then behind the scenes I accept that I'm not perfect. And these things are gonna happen, and forgive myself quickly and move on. So that's my second phase that I'm working on now.
— Okay. Trick question here. Actually, not trick, but it's interesting. Can you tell me what does it mean to have a high capacity for zero?
— Oh yes. Okay. So this is something I've been working on for a while. A high capacity for zero looks like this. You've never done something that you want to do. In my case, it's teaching people how to leave their job and start a business. But for all of us that are starting a business for the first time, we have never done it. Are you willing to go down to zero social media followers, zero people on your email list, zero understanding of what the heck you're doing, zero ego involved? The higher your capacity for zero, starting from scratch, because we have to do it when it's something new like this, the higher your capacity to look like a beginner, to put your ego aside, the more chances you have to succeed. So I'm teaching my students and myself to strengthen that capacity for zero. And it really comes back to what we discussed earlier, the ego. Because a lot of people, like, imagine you and I, we're good at what we do. Put us in a whole other setting and let's say that they made you and I, we have to become dog trainers. And we've never done that before. We're going to look foolish in the beginning, right? We're gonna have no clue what we're doing. And so are we willing to go through that uncomfortable time in order to get to what we want? And it comes back to your why. The stronger your why, the easier it is to have a higher capacity for zero.
— Would you agree too, Amy, that sometimes even if you have a high tolerance for zero in an unrelated, maybe just like in a hobby, so you're trying something completely new, that that crosses over to help create both humility and confidence in your business?
— Love that you asked this. Yes. So just yesterday, it's not a hobby, but yesterday I started this thing where I had to put this patch on my stomach, and it's tracking my insulin and glucose. And I'm gonna sound like an idiot even talking about it, so new to me. But I had to get this app and I had to connect it. All of it was foreign and I was so frustrated yesterday, it felt very overwhelming and I thought, oh, this is what my students feel like when they're trying to build an email list, or this is what they feel like when something's not working, 'cause it wasn't working yesterday. I think having those hobbies or interests in our lives, even outside of our work, to start from zero, makes us a stronger leader.
— Yeah. I think that's so true. And pushing yourself in all areas to grow helps you to grow in your business or your leadership as well. Let's have a little bit of fun with a lightning round and then I'll let you talk a little bit more about how our community confines you. But do you happen to have a favorite leadership quote? Does anything come to mind?
— Ooh, a favorite leadership quote. I don't know, Craig, you put me on the spot. Now I can't think of one!
— It's hard, it's hard. How about, is there a book that you've read on leadership or even something that's shaped you recently that you might wanna recommend?
— So there's this book called "The Gap in the Game". Dan Sullivan, and what's the other guy? I feel terrible now. There's two guys that wrote it and I love it because the whole premise of the book is to be excited and understand where you're at and where you've gone versus where you want to go. It was a very big eye-opener to me.
— I enjoyed that book as well. I think maybe our mutual friend Roy, I think Roy told me about it, perhaps. I'm not sure if he pushed it on you or not. Is there a leader outside of Tony Robbins, 'cause we know you worked with him, is there a leader outside that's really pushed you and helped you grow in developing your leadership?
— Absolutely. Michael Hyatt. Michael Hyatt is a dear friend of mine, but he's my mentor. He's my coach. I love everything he does. He leads with compassion and heart, but he's so incredibly strategic. So he's a huge influence in my life.
— CEO of Thomas Nelson for years, right? And now just one of the best online mentors to people all over the world. He's world class. Hoby is a great guy. Very talented. What do you do that makes him a little bit insane? Just for fun?
— I worry about everything. So he's my sounding board, sometimes when he even doesn't want to be. But yes, I drive him nuts.
— So at the end of your life, you've created tons of online content. You've changed a lot of lives. When people would summarize you in one sentence, Amy Porterfield was what? If you had one sentence to summarize you that would make you feel most successful in a legacy, what would that be?
— Amy Porterfield was compassionate.
— Beautiful.
— That's important to me.
— Very good. I think you'll live up to that. The book is called "Two Weeks Notice: Find the Courage to Quit Your Job, Make More Money, Work Where You Want, and Change the World". You can get it anywhere books are sold. It is a New York Times bestselling book. Amy, you have a lot to offer. What have we not talked about that our community might find value in and how can they find you and what else might they look for that would add value to their leadership?
— Well, thanks for asking. I have a podcast called "Online Marketing Made Easy". So email list, digital courses, entrepreneurial mindset, webinars. We get into all of it. So if you're looking to grow your business, "Online Marketing Made Easy". Thanks for asking.
— We spent just a bit of time with you, Amy, and it was helpful both professionally and just inspirational to see what you've done, what you've built. I think you're a great example of adding value, that you add so much value that people talk about it and wanna grow. And that's what we wanna do on the podcast is we wanna bring very high impactful value to you each time. And so wherever you're watching this, be sure and hit subscribe. If you don't get the leader guide, go to life.church/leadershippodcast and we'll send you the leader guide with additional links and questions for your team. That'll be available for you as well. We'll also show you how you can get Amy's book and find out more about her. And then be sure and share this with others. Just invite them. Amy may not be the most passionate about social media, but she may repost you even if she sees it. So tag her.
— I do a lot of it. I do a lot of it. So I would love to repost.
— Tag her and tag us and we'll try to repost it. And then we'll be back with you on the first Thursday of each month. And an occasional bonus episode as well, where we feel very, very called to invest in your leadership and help you grow because we know that everyone wins when the leader gets better. Amy, thanks for being on today, you're world class.
— Thank you my friend. Take care.
— Bye-bye.